Has anyone had a bad exprience with Earthcore SIPs in Co?

I don't know about Earthcore specifically but from what I read there has been some issues with polyurethane SIPs. From what I read it appears that polyurethane can off-gas causing the panels to de-laminate. This may NO LONGER be an issue, as this may have been addressed and a cure to the problem has been discovered.

PU can lose it's R-Value over the years but they might have addressed this issue also.

The only other issue is that PU will turn to dust in UV light. Just keep it out if UV, as it will literally disintegrate and turn into dust.

PU and XPS loose value over the years. However the stabilized r value is still higher then EPS sips. We have a semi local PU maker in our area. They are actually cheaper then all EPS panel prices I have received by 30%. I have not dealt with or received any numbers with Earthcore. Since they build the panels with all window plating in place and then inject it, the bonding process is stronger then a glued EPS method.

Posted By lzerarc on 24 Jun 2012 12:26 PM
PU and XPS loose value over the years. However the stabilized r value is still higher then EPS sips. We have a semi local PU maker in our area. They are actually cheaper then all EPS panel prices I have received by 30%. I have not dealt with or received any numbers with Earthcore. Since they build the panels with all window plating in place and then inject it, the bonding process is stronger then a glued EPS method.

Izerarc;
PU also shrinks with age,
the problem with injected PU is you don't really know if all the voids are filled? Because you can't see it.
The offgassing is know to have blistered skins causing delamination, the manufacturers cure: drill a hole in it?

Debunking the Myth of Laminated Panels
Myth:
“Laminated” or “Slab” panels are inferior to urethane because they are glued to the skins to hold the panel together. Therefore, these types of panels are not considered as durable and are thought to come loose within a short period of time.
Truth:
For over 40 years cold refrigeration panels have been manufactured by either gluing insulation to metal skins (laminated) or pouring urethane (foamed-in-place) between two metal skins. Contrary to most beliefs, both systems provide equal performance in adhesion if applied correctly. This is important because in cold refrigeration the structural strength of the unit is dependent on this adhesion performance. When metal skins are glued or foamed to insulation a composite panel is created. This created panel performs much like a steel I-beam. I-beams by design are very strong for their weight and are used in building structures that need a lot of strength without the weight, such as skyscrapers. A steel I-beam is two flanges of steel connected and separated by a center steel web. In a walk-in panel, the two flanges are light gauge metal skins and the web is the foam insulation. All I-beams lose their strength if the flanges separate from the web. If the I-beams separate, skyscrapers would collapse. This is similar to panels in cold refrigeration that could fail if the skins separate from the foam insulation.
Both of these manufacturing processes, glued panels and foamed-in-place panels, if applied correctly have the same ability to adhere to the metal skins. They both use polyurethane as the bonding agent but use different processes in manufacturing. Urethane panel production requires much more attention to following procedures than laminated panels do. In the foamed-in-place process, blowing polyurethane foam in between the metal allows it to hold itself to the metal skins. When R-12, now outlawed, was used as the blowing agent in foamed-in-place polyurethane, it would adhere to almost any material and could be applied at a broad temperature range, while providing a high level of product strength. There was little need to watch the manufacturing process. As the old foamed-in-place blowing agents were replaced by new blowing agents, the manufacturing procedures became more demanding. Today, the foam needs to be applied and cured at a much more restricted manufacturing process temperature. The fixtures that hold the panel need to be accurately temperature controlled to accomplish this. Any variation of the temperature during the manufacturing process can cause the panel adhesion to fail in the field. Many manufactures do not have the right equipment or quality procedures to meet these demanding manufacturing requirements. Glued panels however, do not use blowing agents and do not require as stringent manufacturing procedures. The glue used for laminated panels is made specifically for this application and is produced to attach foam to metal. The equipment to apply the glue correctly is readily available and the ability of the glue to adhere to different materials is evident in its wide use in the recreational and housing industry.
In addition to the manufacturing process and the adhesive, there are two other key factors that must be considered: foam characteristics and human error. In the case of extruded polystyrene (slab), because it is a closed cell structure the glue sits on top of the foam and forms a bonding layer between the foam and the skins. The foam must be strong enough to hold the panels together. Since polyurethane is made of chemicals and gasses, when the foam is blown in between the metals, gasses release and form voids in the insulation. The voids, or open spaces, against the metal can cause the metal to detach from the foam. Although it is uncommon, delamination is repeatedly due to human error, not product performance. For foamed-in-place panels, if the foam was not cured accurately or at the correct temperatures there is a possibility of delamination occurring. For laminated panels, if the panels were not pressed or glued correctly there could be a risk of delamination.
Even though delamination is rare, it is still possible in both forms of manufacturing. If your unit delaminates, it can cause severe expense and inconvenience to a business relying on their cold refrigeration units to keep their product cold or frozen.
In conclusion, it has always been identified that the application of quality controlled manufacturing processes determines the products quality to the customer. Can both manufacturing processes meet the punishing requirements of cold storage in the field? The answer is yes, but glued panels are now more forgiving in manufacturing than foamed-in-place polyurethane units due to the changes in blowing agents

Is the process and gluing agent used in SIP manufacturing in anyway similar to what is used to make OSB or GluLam beams?
Or is it a totally different process?

I read that some PU SIPs have a lifetime warranty against delamination?

Why are the warranties on steel SIPs only 1 year or 5 year against delamination?

Posted By cmkavala on 02 Jul 2012 08:23 AM

Posted By lzerarc on 24 Jun 2012 12:26 PM
PU and XPS loose value over the years. However the stabilized r value is still higher then EPS sips. We have a semi local PU maker in our area. They are actually cheaper then all EPS panel prices I have received by 30%. I have not dealt with or received any numbers with Earthcore. Since they build the panels with all window plating in place and then inject it, the bonding process is stronger then a glued EPS method.

Izerarc;
PU also shrinks with age,
the problem with injected PU is you don't really know if all the voids are filled? Because you can't see it.
The offgassing is know to have blistered skins causing delamination, the manufacturers cure: drill a hole in it?

infrared guns are used to check for voids....

infrared guns are used to check for voids....


Infared is great for thermal imaging, but how would that apply to detecting voids, what manufacturer said they were doing that?

Posted By Lbear on 03 Jul 2012 01:21 AM
Is the process and gluing agent used in SIP manufacturing in anyway similar to what is used to make OSB or GluLam beams?
Or is it a totally different process?

I read that some PU SIPs have a lifetime warranty against delamination?

Why are the warranties on steel SIPs only 1 year or 5 year against delamination?

No the process is not the same, The process by each SIP manufacturing may vary as well

Why are the warranties on steel SIPs only 1 year or 5 year against delamination? Why so short?

Posted By Lbear on 03 Jul 2012 04:33 PM

Why are the warranties on steel SIPs only 1 year or 5 year against delamination? Why so short?

Lbear, If you are directing the question to me, I can not answer for the mfg..
Why does Ford only warranty for 36,000 miles when GMC warranty for powertrain is 100,000?
The only conceivable answer is why expose yourself to liability if its not needed.

The truth of the matter is: a company with integrity would want to "make it right" no matter what the implied warranty period is. Without integrity a company would reneg even during the warranty period.

Posted By cmkavala on 03 Jul 2012 05:05 PM

Posted By Lbear on 03 Jul 2012 04:33 PM

Why are the warranties on steel SIPs only 1 year or 5 year against delamination? Why so short?

Lbear, If you are directing the question to me, I can not answer for the mfg..
Why does Ford only warranty for 36,000 miles when GMC warranty for powertrain is 100,000?
The only conceivable answer is why expose yourself to liability if its not needed.

Well the way I look at it is if the manufacturer knows their product is top notch, then offering a 20+ year warranty shows their belief in their engineered product.

There are surprisingly quite a few SIP manufacturers that offer lifetime warranties against panel delamination. Some even go as far to warranty the SIP against delamination for the life of the structure, no matter how many owners it has.

You are right, it is about risk and liability but there is something to be said with a well-engineered product that the manufacturer knows it will not delaminate so they offer a lifetime warranty against delamination. If the calculated risk for delamination is very low (less than .05%), then providing lifetime warranties are a no-brainer. As they instill confidence in their product and consumers are more confident in buying and using it.

Hello Izerarc, Who is the PU maker in your area, and what has been your experience with them. Recommend?