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Whitetail Ridge
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Posts:4
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| 04/11/2006 3:59 PM |
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We will be conducting an experiment with radiant heat this winter, but we will be living in a trailer. I don't really want to put a lot of money into the flooring, so I'm leaning more toward baseboard heating. I do want to add tiled areas to the entryways and will use floor heating in these areas.
If our experiment works, we will incorporate the radiant floor heating into our new home when we build in about a year and a half.
Any ideas or suggestions that we might use as we set up our system? I realize that the trailer is inefficient and will lose a lot of heat, but this is what we have for now, so I'm keeping a positive attitude toward making this work!
edited to add: we will be using water, not electric...
Thanks! |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:386
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| 04/11/2006 5:24 PM |
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well, for starters you'd need to insulate the heck out of the bottom of the trailer.
How are you planning to deal with floor height differentials?
Frankly, I would go electric if the tile areas are not too large.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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Whitetail Ridge
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 04/12/2006 12:10 AM |
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Well, electric is not what we will be experimenting with. I agree, that would be easier, but for now we will be working with hydronics.
As for the floor height differential, depending upon the height of the build-up, we will either have a step or a transition zone, like a ramp I guess.
Right now there is carpet and (minimal) padding in the area that I would like to replace with tile. What is the minimum height that I could get away with if I had pex tubing underneath the tiled area? |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:386
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| 04/12/2006 10:34 AM |
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Well, Quik Trak is 1/2" thickness which is a low as it goes. Also a bit expensive.
DIY sandwiches weigh in at 3/4", plus an underlayment for the tile.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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Davee
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 04/12/2006 8:08 PM |
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quote:
Originally posted by Whitetail Ridge
We will be conducting an experiment with radiant heat this winter, but we will be living in a trailer. I don't really want to put a lot of money into the flooring, so I'm leaning more toward baseboard heating. I do want to add tiled areas to the entryways and will use floor heating in these areas.
If our experiment works, we will incorporate the radiant floor heating into our new home when we build in about a year and a half.
Any ideas or suggestions that we might use as we set up our system? I realize that the trailer is inefficient and will lose a lot of heat, but this is what we have for now, so I'm keeping a positive attitude toward making this work!
edited to add: we will be using water, not electric...
Thanks!
What is your experiment expected to prove?
A trailer is probably the worst case for radiant heating economics with horrific heat loss potential. I can't see any value in the experiment ??? |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 04/13/2006 8:09 AM |
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I understand experimenting, However, Perhaps your experiment might be a better experiment by simulating the same/same (oranges to oranges), conditions that you will be utlizing in your new home. Perhaps you could build an addition to your trailer to mock your new home construction. After all, you will be needing a 'little' more space if you are going to live in your trailer for a little while. If not an addition, how about a shed, or a doghouse. In the Spring, you can ask the dog how he feels about the radiant floor heat.....sl
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Whitetail Ridge
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 04/13/2006 11:15 AM |
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I understand all the misgivings about using a trailer as our experimental zone; however, it is paid for. The point of our experiment is to find an alternative way to heat the fluid in the radiant system. Would 130-150 degree temps be adequate for baseboard radiators and limited areas of floor heat?
We have the trailer situated behind a building that acts as a windbreak, and we will certainly insulate the bottom of the trailer. Another point to take into consideration is our perception of "comfortable" temperatures. We are accustomed to spending the winter months heating with a single woodburning stove, using no supplemental heat. Temps range from 52 to 67 (the average is closer to 64).
We stand to lose very little with our experiment (if it fails miserably, we can simply switch over to conventional electric heat), but the potential is there for long term "free" heat, so we are trying it.
I would like to give this the best chance to succeed, so I'm looking for the best way to set up the hardware of the system: tubing, radiators, etc, while keeping the investment modest. We are very handy and willing to work, so we can usually eliminate labor costs.
With all that in mind, anyone care to comment on system set up? Pros and cons of using baseboard radiators? which work better, the slimline copper/aluminum type or the boxier type with the aluminum fins? (please be forgiving with my use of terminology--I'm just learning...)
For the entryway, I like the idea of using the reflective barrier, pex tubing and then gypcrete (I mean to say lightweight concrete) poured over that. Would that surface be enough to support tiles, or should cement board be laid down as the tile base? Rob, you mentioned DIY sandwiches...I'm not sure what these are exactly, though I can guess that one side of the sandwich is the existing subfloor.
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:386
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| 04/13/2006 2:07 PM |
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130-150 can be ok with baseboard or it can be too low.
It's almost definitely too hot for radiant floor. If your temps are going to get that hot, you will need to provide for mixing.
You cannot run these two types of heat at the same temp unless you really crunch some numbers. Especially not in your setup.
'crete would work.. has to be 1.5" thick, keep tubing to 9" o.c. or less.
Not sure what your "free heat" is, but in most cases alternative energy sources work best with low water temperature requirements. That is, it's usually easier to get low temp water (say, out of solar) than high temp water. 'crete is a fine choice for that. Radiant ceiling can be a good choice too. Or, panel radiators. But not baseboard.
DIY sandwiches use strips of plywood with aluminum plates stapled down and tubing snapped into the plates. skips the thermal mass effect and just conducts to the flooring.
Do NOT use reflective barriers, especially not in direct contact with whatever you are insulating. They are a total waste of money if installed like that.
The tile council of america has details for tile installation over concrete. it generally calls for an isolation membrane but no need for cement board over the 'crete.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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Davee
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 04/15/2006 4:06 PM |
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| I am still bothered by the value in "experimenting" in an environment which will not resemble at all what you would experience in a house. You say the experiment has to do with how you heat the water? Then it is not radiant heating you are testing? So why confuse radiant with baseboard heaters which are largely convective heaters. If you are concerned with the amount of heat available from your special source, the trailer heating load must equal the future house load or you could end up with lower temperatures or undersized heat exchangers. In otherwords design your experiment & what you need to prove. We all know radiant heated floors work . The devil is in the details |
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Whitetail Ridge
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 04/15/2006 6:00 PM |
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Davee, you are correct in that I want to test my heat source.
I don't want to heat the trailer using electricity all winter, so I would like to test my heat source and use radiant heating for all or most of my heating needs.
The trailer IS what we have, and I have NO interest in creating a perfect test environment to match our eventual permanent use--garage and shop floor heating in a concrete slab. It's just not cost effective. It would cost less to heat the trailer with electric heaters for the winter.
I'm posting here because this is my first experience with any sort of radiant heat, so, as you can imagine, there are many details to be worked out.
From the posts I've read, many of the regulars on this board have a great deal of experience with many different heating systems and applications. I had hopes of crystallizing my plans by reading what others have done and finding out from those who use these systems what may and may not work, and why, and why something else might work better.
My lack of desire and ability to create a perfect test environment, that would mirror the eventual application, doesn't mean that my experiment has no merit or value. True, the performance of the system I use this coming winter may have little impact on the system that I eventually will be using, but hey! I might have "free" heat all winter too.
I most certainly will learn a lot.
I will continue to keep an open mind and realistic expectations, and I will continue to post questions, all in the spirit of learning and gaining more understanding.
I asked about baseboard because it would be easier to install with the existing layout. I'd really prefer NOT to have to redo the entire floor.
Rob, I appreciate your input, and I have a question--if the water temperature is too high for floor heat, what if I first ran it through a radiator (panel radiator, most likely) and then used floor heat "downstream" of the radiator? |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:386
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| 04/15/2006 7:43 PM |
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You might get lucky that way, Or you might not. That would take careful calculation and flow rate control to be sure of.
Really, if you are going to do a 2-temp system, you need to mix down for the radiant. How you do this depends on what you are trying to do and what your heat source is. If it can handle low return water temps, a simple 3-way fixed tempering valve will do the trick (pump out of it). That won't set you back very much.. plus a pump, the valve and themometer to set the valve with.
However, that isn't a "comfort" option. It's a "lets do this cheap" option, which you very well may be shooting for here, just keep in mind the floors can be kept more consistently warm with an outdoor reset mixing device like an injection pump or a motorized mixing valve... so later, when you do this right, you can improve upon it.
What is your "experimental" heat source?
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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