ReadyToRetire
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| 10/09/2007 6:09 PM |
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I've been reading on SIPs and I'm actively considering them for a retirement home.
In our present house, we suffer from drafts (both infiltration and convection) and radiant chilling to an uninsulated brick veneer surround for the fireplace. The main advantages that make me interested in SIPs are the low infiltration and the uniform temps. But, back on 8/15, VHEHN stated that you could
get 90% of the benefits (I'm assuming that he was discussing heat and cooling loads rather than structural benefits) by using stick construction and
sprayed insulation.
I've read articles that compared traditional
stick construction and SIPs, but I've not found any comparison between SIPs and
stick with sprayed foam insulation. If I limit my consideration to comfort (that's the only way that I'll convince my wife to invest in SIPs), can you suggest any articles that compare the two approaches?
Thanks for any cites or suggestions that you can offer.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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PanelCrafters
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| 10/09/2007 8:23 PM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 10/09/2007 6:09 PM
But, back on 8/15, VHEHN stated that you could get 90% of the benefits (I'm assuming that he was discussing heat and cooling loads rather than structural benefits) by using stick construction and sprayed insulation.
I've read articles that compared traditional stick construction and SIPs, but I've not found any comparison between SIPs and stick with sprayed foam insulation.
Differences? There are basically 2 issues:
- Insulative properties...
- and, Cost...
Insulative: SIPS will be superior due to a reduction in Thermal Bridging(less studs).
Cost:Spray foam isn't cheap. And, SIPS will save you installation labor(assuming prefabricated panels and the right manufacturer).
So, there won't be a big difference in cost.
I guess that it all depends on what costs are in your area and which method that you prefer.
Good Luck! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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mmacgowa
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Posts:542
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| 10/10/2007 6:39 AM |
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Larry,
I think either way you go, you will have a more comfortable home for your retirement. Considering it is your retirement and you may live out your lives there, your comfort and health is probably the greatest concern. Thus your upgrade is probably worth the expense and you probably have less concern over the ability for return on investment for heirs or if you decide to move.
In addition to the issues you have already listed, there are issues with getting the project completed. Most likely you will be able to locate a local crew to do spray foam insulation. SIP crews may be hard to come by. A good green builder or an innovative framer should be able to do your SIP project but if you are the first one to use SIPs you may not realize the expected labor savings. Unfortunately SIPs are still an alternative for most builders.
You might consider a hybrid. SIP walls are much easier and require less skill then roof installs. And it is likely you can put all the walls on a single truck for typical houses. So you might use SIP walls and use spray foam for the roof. This might open more doors for framing.
In the area of cost, you are probably one version of the building code away from really getting a good difference. JC posted a recent article about the planned update for the building code to include a prescriptive method for SIPs. Until this is complete engineering will most likely be a required component that will add expense to the project. But much of this is offset by a panel supplier who can offer it and precut walls in an efficient package. And while you will have a home that is completed faster with precut panels, also consider that you may have to provide a method for unloading panels and setting them. Don't forget to add this in your calcs.
I hope you enjoy many years in your superior insulated home and that your strucute keeps you comfortable and safe. |
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PanelCrafters
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| 10/10/2007 6:57 PM |
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Posted By mmacgowa on 10/10/2007 6:39 AM Thus your upgrade is probably worth the expense and you probably have less concern over the ability for return on investment for heirs or if you decide to move.
OMG, that is hilarious. MM I think that you've taken 'cheapness' to a new low.
I guess that the real question is: Since the investment will reduce energy costs(which continue to rise) is the investment ill advised or the act of a 'spendthrift'? Or is the investment a wise move(since it will reduce energy costs for the life of the structure)? And, how do you know that the investment won't be recouped when the house is sold, as there is no 'line item' breakdown of what they are paying for vs what they paid for originally?
Inquiring Minds and all of that. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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dgravlin
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Posts:22
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| 10/11/2007 9:51 PM |
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I am in the process of building a SIP home - the panels are in place and we are now moving on to the stick framed interior walls. I am still a fan of SIPs but I would do some things differently "the next time". I designed the house myself and then turned the plans over to the local dealer of a large SIP manufacturer (based in BC, Canada). It was then that my frustrations started. With the knowledge I've gained in the past year, I could avoid a lot of delays and problems were I to do this again. But my biggest disappointment was with the quality of the panel assemblies from the SIP supplier. I am doing a SIP home purely for the "green" aspect. I did not expect it to be either faster or cheaper (it has been neither). But I did expect the panels to be built in a manner that optimized energy efficiency. My panels arrived with visible gaps in the factory joined seams. Wire chases did not align, which required time consuming modifications in the field. When we deconstructed panels we discovered gaps between the foam and the factory installed lumber. And there were other problems. Fortunately, I had hired an experienced SIP assembly crew which were able to fix most of the problems. Since I am onsite daily, I am aware of every "issue" and I can make sure they get fixed. But, most of these things should have been caught at the factory. I would never use this SIP supplier again.
Were I to do it again, I would still go with SIPs instead of stick framing with foam but I would use a local fabricator. In Northern California we have at least one contractor who buys panels in bulk and fabricates them locally. They then install them - so there is completely accountability when it comes to panel quality. I would strongly recommend trying to find someone like that in your area. If I could not, then I would probably go with a stick framed & spray foam method BUT ONLY IF I COULD FIND AN ENGINEER AND FRAMER WHO MADE ENERGY EFFICIENCY A PRIORITY. The problem with most framers (and engineers) is that they prefer to put as much lumber into a structure as possible. Thermal bridges become numerous.
SIPs should be a great way to build an energy efficient home but my experience with one SIP supplier has been disappointing. They seem to have forgotten why people invest in this construction method.
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PanelCrafters
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| 10/11/2007 11:12 PM |
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Posted By dgravlin on 10/11/2007 9:51 PM
But my biggest disappointment was with the quality of the panel assemblies from the SIP supplier....But I did expect the panels to be built in a manner that optimized energy efficiency. My panels arrived with visible gaps in the factory joined seams. Wire chases did not align, which required time consuming modifications in the field. When we deconstructed panels we discovered gaps between the foam and the factory installed lumber. And there were other problems.
I can sympathize with you. The first company that supplied our panels had poor QC. We found 1/4" gaps between the foam blocks within a panel, and they added way too much lumber to a panel(making the panel inefficient, but padding their profit). They're History!
We also worked with a PU company whose own president was more like a used car salesman(and just as 'honest') than a trustworthy representative of his own company. They're History!
We finally found a quality company, with quality people, and we are happy.
Class and Quality beat BS and price(supposedly lower), any day of the week. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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dmaceld
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Posts:513
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| 10/12/2007 12:02 AM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 10/09/2007 6:09 PM
The main advantages that make me interested in SIPs are the low infiltration and the uniform temps. But, back on 8/15, VHEHN stated that you could
get 90% of the benefits (I'm assuming that he was discussing heat and cooling loads rather than structural benefits) by using stick construction and
sprayed insulation.
Give some consideration to a method I thought about for the exterior walls, staggered studs. With some ingenuity in thinking you can come up with a way to build a 2 x 6 wall using 2 x 4 studs staggered. Half the studs support the exterior wall surface, half the interior wall surface. Also, if you put trimmer studs sideways at the doors and windows you have space to put foam insulation between them. The end result is you have a 6" cavity that can be filled with cellulose, or whatever, and very little thermal bridging from inside to outside, even in the corners. Seal the outside tight with house wrap, and you've got yourself a pretty good cocoon, I think. Cheaper than SIPs? No idea.
Why didn't I do it that way? A staffer at Oak Ridge in the building energy group, in an email to me, discouraged the idea. Didn't think the return over regular 2 x 6 wall configuration was worth the cost. I liked the idea of ICFs too much, and it was early in my planning process and I was still learning a lot about building energy efficiency. If I was starting over, I would take a hard look at it.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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ReadyToRetire
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Posts:209
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| 10/12/2007 9:57 AM |
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Thanks all.
JC -- I had not realized that spray in place foam was that expensive. That gives a further push towards SIPs.
MMacgowa -- We're thinking of building in Williamsburg, VA. The few builders that I have talked to had no SIP experience. Although we'll be talking to a few more builders in Nov., my impression is that it's still unusual there. I'm expecting to have to contract with the panel supplier for an erection crew. Which means that I'll need a GC willing to let that part out.
DGRavilin -- Your experience is one of my greater fears; and I'd not be present every day to catch it. I'd hope that keeping the panel supply and erection efforts from a common source would mitigate that risk. (Optimistic?) Conceptually, I've been leaning towards PU panels because there would be no internal voids and it would seem to reduce the risk of delamination between the foam and skin -- but I'm not far enough down the stream to consider that yet.
JC -- When you say that those suppliers "are history," are you saying that they have folded and, thus, are no longer a threat, or are you saying that you no long do business with them?
dmaceld -- That's an interesting idea, but my guess is it would require a PE additional analysis over a standard SIP design. And the construction would be astandard also, so it would lead back to additional cost and oversight. But it's a NEAT idea.
Are the mis-aligned chases that DGRavilin mentions a problem with panels from any other source?
Very respectfully,
Larry |
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PanelCrafters
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| 10/12/2007 10:24 AM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 10/12/2007 9:57 AM
JC -- I had not realized that spray in place foam was that expensive. That gives a further push towards SIPs.
The last time I priced it here in Colorado it was running $0.65 to $0.80 per board foot. So, that's $2.28 to $2.80 per sqft of a 2x4 wall(filled 3.5" deep).
JC -- When you say that those suppliers "are history," are you saying that they have folded and, thus, are no longer a threat, or are you saying that you no long do business with them?
It means I no longer do business with them. History! |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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slenzen
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Posts:178
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| 10/12/2007 2:31 PM |
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| One method I am considering is 2x6 with spray foam and EIFS. I want a modern stucco exterior and the exterior foam would help the thermal bridging of the studs. What kind of costs am I looking at comparing this to SIPS or ICF? |
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slenzen
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Posts:178
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| 10/12/2007 5:40 PM |
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| At metalcon I talked to the Accelerated Building Technology people and they said their metal stud eps foam system would be comparable to stick framing cost. That way I could stucco the outside right on the built in eps foam and there is room for traditional trade work between the inside studs and additional spray foam to seal it all up. |
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eifs va
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Posts:4
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| 10/13/2007 12:01 AM |
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I'm glad I stumbled onto this site. Well funny you mentioned that Slenzen, about the modern eifs. This is the thing, whether you have a SIP, HIP or a DIP...your exterior facade has to be finished with something. Me personaly I'm biased because I own a stucco home.
The SIP system is a no brainer and quite frankly, it's probably one of the best ways to go as far as R-value, durability and stuff like that. That said, in my opinion, hands down the most beautiful facades are EIFS. Nowhere do you get the curb appeal, crispness in the details and overall superior aesthetics, that along with all the othe properties associated with masonry systems such as durabilty and lower maintenance cost.
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www.robsantana.com |
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georgia boy
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Posts:1
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| 10/13/2007 10:00 AM |
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slenzen;
I sent a plan to Accelerated Building Technology over 2 months ago and they did not quote any prices, they are a subsidaray of deitrich steel based out of Pitsburgh and they admitted that they are still in design/developmet stages . they have not fully developed their roof panels yet. their delivery times are about 6- 8 weeks , nothing fast about that? |
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slenzen
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Posts:178
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| 10/13/2007 8:48 PM |
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| have EIFS systems overcome freeze thaw problems? I live in MN and know there have been some problems w/ stucco homes in the past. |
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slenzen
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Posts:178
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| 10/13/2007 8:50 PM |
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georgia,
The rep at the show said they would be competitive with stick but that all depends on solid pricing and the efficiency of the crew handling panels I suppose. I don't want to pay a crew to learn a system at my expense! |
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k_radanovich
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Posts:9
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| 10/14/2007 2:44 PM |
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| I am in the process of installing a SIPs roof for a neighbor that ordered a steel stud kit house that will have sprayed in foam insulation. He has had such a bad experience with everything from precut studs not cut to the correct length to studs not having holes for electrical etc. that he cancelled the roof and asked if I could last minute design and install a SIPs roof in three weeks. It was done in four as we had to re-engineer and get approval from the building dept. The difference in price for this case was unbelievable. His kit for steel studs was $22.00 per sq. ft. but that did not include any red steel or moment frames. When all is said and done he paid $44.00 per sq. ft. with no insulation. As a comparrison I priced out his home with SIPs and with all structural members and interior framing it would have come to $25.00 per sq. ft. In southern california my sales pitch is: the cost of framing here. Just the labor can be anywhere from $15 to $60 per sq. ft. SIPs have been coming in at around $23.00 incl. install. It depends on the design and difficulty of engineering but generaly there is no comparison. The amazing thing was that he was going for the lowest price. I know in other parts of the country you can do this cheaper but here SIPs are the inexpensive alternative. The "kit" came from Texas by the way... |
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Paulcf
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Posts:17
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| 10/15/2007 8:54 PM |
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Be careful with sprayed foam. A friend of mine did this for his open roof system in his timber framed house. Problem was a year later when the lumber continued to dry and twist. It 'cracked' away from the foam and left small gaps 1/16" etc all over. These wonderful little gaps allowed humid warm air to reach the cold and condense, drip, drip. Soon black mould was showing up, had to tear it all down from the inside and redo with fibreglass and vapour barrier.
If you approach framing crews in advance and show them SIP pieces and how they go together, I've never had a framer look back.
And termal briding is a nightmare plus it wastes a lot of dimensional lumber that a SIP reduces by 77% (with our SIPs). Here in Canada, a fibreglass R-20 wall becomes about R-4 when it is -30C, since the porosity of the fibreglass still lets cold and warm air to migrate and meet, as the vapour barriers are never perfect. Our closed cell foam eliminates them from meeting inside your walls.
Stay warm, economically! |
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tmsu
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Posts:43
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| 10/17/2007 5:49 AM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 10/12/2007 9:57 AM
Thanks all.
JC -- I had not realized that spray in place foam was that expensive. That gives a further push towards SIPs.
MMacgowa -- We're thinking of building in Williamsburg, VA. The few builders that I have talked to had no SIP experience. Although we'll be talking to a few more builders in Nov., my impression is that it's still unusual there. I'm expecting to have to contract with the panel supplier for an erection crew. Which means that I'll need a GC willing to let that part out.
DGRavilin -- Your experience is one of my greater fears; and I'd not be present every day to catch it. I'd hope that keeping the panel supply and erection efforts from a common source would mitigate that risk. (Optimistic?) Conceptually, I've been leaning towards PU panels because there would be no internal voids and it would seem to reduce the risk of delamination between the foam and skin -- but I'm not far enough down the stream to consider that yet.
JC -- When you say that those suppliers "are history," are you saying that they have folded and, thus, are no longer a threat, or are you saying that you no long do business with them?
dmaceld -- That's an interesting idea, but my guess is it would require a PE additional analysis over a standard SIP design. And the construction would be astandard also, so it would lead back to additional cost and oversight. But it's a NEAT idea.
Are the mis-aligned chases that DGRavilin mentions a problem with panels from any other source?
Very respectfully,
Larry Larry,
My experience with the SIP building process was very good. I have posted this before and probably sound like a sales guy or something. I am not. Just a guy who GC'd his own house and did most of the work myself (with family and friends). My panels were made very well. The supplier was about 2hrs. away and I took the time to tour their facility and see how they made panels. The company I used has an engineering staff that took my architect plans and engineered the house around them. The panels were right to spec. Their quote was one of the lower ones I received as well. Delivery was as scheduled. I had problems and needed to do some "carpentry work" but that revolved more around my inexperience and coordination with the concrete company who poured my foundation (which was off a bit - again, my fault not theirs). Anyway, I feel pretty blessed with my experience versus some I have read about. I don't really know how this compares to regular stick build as I didn't really consider because I wanted the upgrade. I suppose some will debate which way is the "right" way to go but that is too late for me. I can say that I put in (1) furnace and (1) condenser (versus the 2 recommended for the size of the house) and it has been very comfortable.
I would say that SIPs can be great (my experience) or a nightmare (others) if you do not choose the right supplier/builder. I suppose you could say that about any of the trades though.
Tmsu
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