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Forums > Green Building Technologies > Solar and Wind Power > Subject: Calculating thermal mass, in passive solar homes

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TedKellerUser is Offline
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08/17/2007 10:42 AM  
   I am  designing a passive solar home for northern New Mexico.   I read alot about balancing the percent of southern glass to the amount of mass.     For instance the information that I have says that if you have 7% glass on the south side, the mass in a  normal house will be adequet.    We are planning to have 10 % southern glass, and a cement floor.    The question that I have is, is the cement floor considered to be part of the "normal house mass"  or can we consider it extra mass in our figuring?  Thanks for any help on this question.  Ted.  
billmhUser is Offline
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08/22/2007 4:52 PM  
Ted,

Yes the floor is storage as well as walls. I am buliding (or planning) an Adobe home in Las vegas, NM, and have been reading up and playing with spreadsheets about the passive solar. You are right about glass and the need for mass. Have you read James Kachadorian's book "Passive Solar House" ? It spells it out very well, though the book primarily is a setup to build his solar floor, you can adjust it for just plain concrete. But it may tell you if you are overheating with too much glass.

Adobe brings with it its own set of unknowns (I say unknown, its more something you cannot put a number on), but it has plenty of mass, so you can have some fudge room on the glass.

I would reccommend reading this book if you have not already. I am not expert and just learning myself, but if you have some questions, I may be able to help some.

Bill
BenjaminUser is Offline
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08/23/2007 1:25 PM  

Ted ,

 

I am also in process of building a residential unit using this concept. Are you designing the house yourself?

 

I am looking for someone to help me plan and design mine, with exception that I am in southern California and have read about the technology that can reduce energy usage by approximately 80% and using  the passive house technology,

 

Regards,

billmhUser is Offline
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08/23/2007 5:42 PM  

Benjamin,

There are several books out there, such as the one I mentioned, that details the basic concepts. The end result is based upon what you build out of concerning R-Values for windows, walls, floors, and roof. I have chosen adobe because it provides other values that wood and concrete do not. It is cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter based upon it's ability to hold and release moisture.

The passive solar house book I mentioned was good in that it spells out all the values you need to consider. The end result is you have some heat load that you will have to make up in the form of some source such as a boiler, furnace, radiant, wood, etc. What ever is your slant. I plan to use radiant flooring and solar panels to heat the fluid. It gives you a way to calculate the light exposure to your floors, heat loss through your windows, walls and roof, and as I stated, a net amount of BTU's you wil have to have as backup for those cold cloudy days you cannot plan for.

There are a lot of designs you can get to give you a starting point. From what I have read, the passive solar home is pretty typical except for the fact you minimize glazing on the north, less on the east and west, and most on the south, not to exceed a certain amount, such as the 8% you mentioned. The design I bought was already passive solar, which also has a celestry set of south facing windows to provide light/heat to the center back (north side) of the house.

In the end, you heat the floor mass with your south facing glazing, store it in the floors, and in my case the adobe walls, for nighttime use. Anyway, that is supposed to be the way it works.

Bill

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08/23/2007 10:46 PM  
Posted By billmh on 08/23/2007 5:42 PM
The end result is based upon what you build out of concerning R-Values for windows, walls, floors, and roof....I plan to use radiant flooring and solar panels to heat the fluid.

Bingo!
From what I have read, the passive solar home is pretty typical except for the fact you minimize glazing on the north, less on the east and west, and most on the south, not to exceed a certain amount, such as the 8% you mentioned.

Well maybe. If you are really looking for maximizing your heat storage(and savings), the indoor storage space will be uncomfortably hot during sunny days.

Case in point. My current home, while not designed for passive solar, has copious amounts of South facing windows. During the winter(at 8,900') the large open area(LR, DR, KIT) is often above 90°(above 100° at the top of the vaulted ceiling). Not very comfortable!

So, I have adopted to the theology of Super Insulating(to reduce Heat Loss), using Active Solar, and a large storage tank to accomplish a more comfortable(and controlable) temperature in my current designs.

Store the Heat, don't live through it, and I think that you'll be happier.

....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
Todd6286User is Offline
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10/03/2007 2:28 PM  
I'm building a 3500 sq foot home with passive solar features on the south side - not wildly passive solar but more than 90% of people have.  Since the walls will be ICF - will I have to add any more thermal mass or will the ICF itself be plenty. Todd
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10/06/2007 3:54 PM  
Posted By Todd6286 on 10/03/2007 2:28 PM
I'm building a 3500 sq foot home with passive solar features on the south side - not wildly passive solar but more than 90% of people have.  Since the walls will be ICF - will I have to add any more thermal mass or will the ICF itself be plenty.

To receive the maximum benefit from thermal mass, it must be exposed. ORNL will back me up on that statement. There are also other issues such as 'thermal wicking' to consider. And, calculating the effect of Thermal Mass is a grey area at best.

How much heat do you think that your ICF wall will be able to absorb when it's insulated?

....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
intransitUser is Offline
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10/08/2007 1:59 PM  
Posted By PanelCrafters on 10/06/2007 3:54 PM
Posted By Todd6286 on 10/03/2007 2:28 PM
I'm building a 3500 sq foot home with passive solar features on the south side - not wildly passive solar but more than 90% of people have.  Since the walls will be ICF - will I have to add any more thermal mass or will the ICF itself be plenty.

To receive the maximum benefit from thermal mass, it must be exposed. ORNL will back me up on that statement. There are also other issues such as 'thermal wicking' to consider. And, calculating the effect of Thermal Mass is a grey area at best.

How much heat do you think that your ICF wall will be able to absorb when it's insulated?


i have a link somewhere where this guy built the entire structure out of dry stacked cement blocks, including all interior walls.

concrete walls?   :-)

sounds extreme, but could make up for some of the thermal mass lost due to icf's where its needed most.


research is having confidence in nonsense. - burt rutan
intransitUser is Offline
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10/10/2007 5:49 PM  
Posted By intransit on 10/08/2007 1:59 PM


i have a link somewhere where this guy built the entire structure out of dry stacked cement blocks, including all interior walls.

concrete walls?   :-)

sounds extreme, but could make up for some of the thermal mass lost due to icf's where its needed most.



here is the link i mentioned above.

LINK

research is having confidence in nonsense. - burt rutan
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11/30/2007 6:54 PM  
Going with adobe you get the benefit of the thermal capacity of the walls in addition to the flooring. They do not necessarily have to be in direct sunshine to do this either.

Bill
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12/26/2007 9:56 AM  
Hi Ted,

Same answer as I gave in the Trombe wall thread. Mazria's book is great for this kind of calculation and ha a thorough discussion of what is normal mass as compared with added mass.

Looks like it would be good for us to have a talk on the phone. Let me know. djschrall@yahoo.com
solargreendnaUser is Offline
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12/27/2007 8:45 PM  
LINK
jv1943User is Offline
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02/02/2008 12:23 AM  
When I read about novices designing passive solar homes from scratch I shake a little and then go on. When I hear someone has to much glass in a room and it gets hot there and therefore does not like passive I realize why the government promoted active panels.

I designed a passive solar home for my mother in of all places northern MN. She lived in it and loved it for 20 years until she had to go to a nursing home at 94 years old. They are amazing structures and can be very comfortable - she especially liked the warm floor. When I designed the house I did not do a single calculation but studied many designs. After it was built I recieved a set of standards for amount of glazing and building mass, etc. from a local government agency and my mothers house fell right into the format.

I'm an Architect and I think that training helped, I think passive will come back but hopefully not the same way. I think what killed them before was that they were designed by engineers for energy reasons and not for people. When people are in a house with glazing only to the south they feel like they are in a tunnel and there are many designs by engineers that way. You never felt that way in my design.

Best of luck
BenjaminUser is Offline
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02/02/2008 10:37 AM  

Bill,

Thanks for your information. Meanwhile I was searching on the internet and came across a company that has perfected this passive house concept and according to the information their standard is being implemented into all the European construction building codes for energy conservation and reductions of excessive fuel costs.

I am now trying in Los Angeles to find an architect that can help me make sense and help me design my house.

Thanks again for your help.

 

Regards,

DteltechUser is Offline
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03/07/2008 12:20 PM  
Benjamin,
I am interested in the name or website of the company that has perfected the passive solar house. Please post a link. Guidelines and material selection will change, based on location and climate. A passive home in Los Angeles should be somewhat different than a passive home in Oslo.

I agree with jv1943, you must have a livable home that gets a large amount of its' heating requirements from solar gain. This does not mean that you build a big "hot box" and expect to be content living inside of it.

Good luck!

They lacked the knowledge of houses - Aeschylus
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03/09/2008 6:05 AM  

Here is a link to one of the European Passivhaus sites:

http://www.passiv.de/

If you google on Passivhaus you will get a lot of links to follow.

The basic elements of a Passivhaus seem to be:

·         Compact form and good insulation

·         Southern orientation and shade considerations

·         Energy-efficient window glazing and frames

·         Building envelope air-tightness

·         Passive preheating of fresh air.

·         Highly efficient heat recovery from exhaust air using an air-to-air heat exchanger

·         Hot water supply using regenerative energy sources

·         Energy-saving household appliances

I think they have it right….it is common sense.  Super insulation and airtight construction with a dedicated ventilation system are key elements.  The climates for south Texas and Canada are different so there is not a common solution.

With respect to thermal mass, it must be exposed to the space to be fully effective.  Accordingly, most ICFs do not fully mobilize the mass of the concrete on daily temperature fluctuations because of the inner insulation layer.   

xexpat

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03/10/2008 3:06 PM  

Dteltech,

Information you requested is attached. I think the site address is also there if not contact me at my e-mail and will give you addtional info.

I am looking to get this technology for my project,

Regards,

Benjamin


Attachment: ISOMAX_Energy flux for the future[1].pdf

SustainablelivingsolutionsUser is Offline
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03/13/2008 11:22 AM  
if you are still looking at building a home with passive solar features to maximize thermal mass, check out the following link for an alternative to ICFs which reduce the effectiveness of thermal mass because of the insulation on the inside of the concrete wall: link (the site is being updated with the new site anticipated to go live around March 31.

Denis
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