Todd6286
Registered Users
Posts:37
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| 03/25/2008 10:53 PM |
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Well I don't see any questions on front doors so I'll go first.
Does anyone have info on a high R value front door? I see the EERE website states that front doors with a "foam insulation core" can be a around R - 5 which makes sense as I recall EPS is about 5 per inch.
Does anyone know of a brand of door that would fit this description or better?
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lambabbey
Registered Users
Posts:71
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| 03/26/2008 2:10 AM |
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I think the first question you need to ask yourself is how much are you willing to pay? And can it be a solid door, or does it need to have glass? This decision will most likely have a significant bearing on your R-value.
I began pricing out entry doors a couple weeks back and was floored by how much they can cost, especially going with a company like Hurd. I've decided to go with a mid-range door (Therma-Tru) and specifically a 1" thick fiberglass door with 1/4 glass (low e) and grilles from their Classic-Craft American Style Collection. The Therma-Tru doors fitting these specs have a U-factor of 0.17 which translates to an R-5.9 (1/U-factor). That's good enough for me.
Just for comparison's sake, if I went to an identical door to the one above except increased the glass from 1/4 of the door to 3/4, the U-factor would increase from 0.17 to 0.26 (R-3.85). The same door with no glass would have a U-factor of 0.15 (R 6.67).
Hope this helps,
John |
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John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
PO Box 623
Union, ME 04863
E-mail: orchard@lambabbey.com |
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djschrall
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 03/26/2008 4:37 AM |
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| Todd,
I lived with a Therma-Tru door for 4 years in Northern Wyoming and found it to be quite efficient. Having said that, R-5 is still not all that much insulation...not much better than a good window...
The most energy efficient way is to include an "airlock entry way" to separate the real living space from the cold air near the entry door. My entryway served for both the maid door to the house as well as teh door from the garage.
Hope this helps.
Dave |
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lambabbey
Registered Users
Posts:71
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| 03/26/2008 4:49 AM |
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Dave:
The airlock entry way is a great idea if you've got the space. For many of us building new homes these days though, we're scaling back on the size of our houses considerably, making such an option a luxury, not to mention maid's quarters :) The main floor of my place for example is only 760 sq ft. I'm curious what size of place Todd's going to be building . . .
Glad you had good luck with the Therma-Tru doors.
EDIT: Main floor is now 814 sq ft (with air-lock entry added)
John
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John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
PO Box 623
Union, ME 04863
E-mail: orchard@lambabbey.com |
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djschrall
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 03/26/2008 7:42 AM |
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John,
Agreed! the airlock takes space. BUT, an airlock entry will more than pay for itself through 1) isolating cold air that comes in every time the door is opened, and 2) isolating the cold air that results from such a low R-value plus the air infiltration through the door's gaps. If you compare the cost to build an extra 100ft^2(ish) of space to the energy savings and COMFORT over 5, 10, 20 years, you will find it pays for itself.
Dave |
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Todd6286
Registered Users
Posts:37
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| 03/26/2008 8:16 AM |
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Thanks for the great leads!
The door does not need to have glass. The house is going to be 3500 sq foot - to answer the questions. I would consider an air lock - we are already designing the entry way from the garage to have an air lock(i.e. from the garage one will walk through the mudroom/airlock to get into the house.).
I was on the Hurd website - the doors look gorgeous but I couldn't find much in their custom section about R value.
After I made the above post I was lying in bed staring at the ceiling thinking why doesn't somebody make a 5 inch thick eps foam door with some nice faux oak paneling and an R-30 value. It would be really thick but light and have the look of thick/sturdy that would go with the ICF wall look (the house is going to be ICF). And foam is cheap so how much could it really cost? |
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lambabbey
Registered Users
Posts:71
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| 03/26/2008 1:11 PM |
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Posted By djschrall on 03/26/2008 7:42 AM
John,
Agreed! the airlock takes space. BUT, an airlock entry will more than pay for itself through 1) isolating cold air that comes in every time the door is opened, and 2) isolating the cold air that results from such a low R-value plus the air infiltration through the door's gaps. If you compare the cost to build an extra 100ft^2(ish) of space to the energy savings and COMFORT over 5, 10, 20 years, you will find it pays for itself.
Dave
Dave:
I think your suggestion makes perfect sense in a house where space isn't at a premium. If I were to add an additional 200 sq ft (100x2) to a floorplan that is currently 760 sq ft on the main floor (increasing it by 20+%), you better believe that extra space would go into a bigger kitchen, not airlock entrances at each end of the house.
I think you and I just have different philosophies about how much house we need, and neither is right or better. I'm trying to scale back to the minimum of what I'd be content with, and put extra money into making that space work really, really well. I'm guessing that for you, the square footage is pretty much irrelevant: "Hell, just slap on another couple rooms!" :)
John
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John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
PO Box 623
Union, ME 04863
E-mail: orchard@lambabbey.com |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1280
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| 03/26/2008 2:32 PM |
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Posted By djschrall on 03/26/2008 7:42 AM
Agreed! the airlock takes space. BUT, an airlock entry will more than pay for itself through 1) isolating cold air that comes in every time the door is opened, and 2) isolating the cold air that results from such a low R-value plus the air infiltration through the door's gaps.
When I finally get around to building my next house, not only will it be Super Insulated, but it will also have 'airlock entries'. And, you can design them to take very little extra space(just an extra door, and insulate the interior walls at that location.). |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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lambabbey
Registered Users
Posts:71
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| 03/27/2008 1:10 AM |
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Dave & JC:
OK, guys. Fair enough. I thought this through and am taking your advice and adding a small airlock entry to the front of the house. But I'm leaving the back entry as is because I doubt I'll be spending much time on a back porch in the wintertime in Maine, and because there's a decent chance I'll elect to close it in an some point, once I accept that an open porch is pretty much useless during black fly season out here.
The house has now expanded from 1,700 to a whopping 1,765 sq ft. And that's all the bigger I'm going to let it get.
Thanks for the suggestion. You're right---it does make good sense.
John |
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John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
PO Box 623
Union, ME 04863
E-mail: orchard@lambabbey.com |
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djschrall
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 03/28/2008 7:56 AM |
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John,
There is one MAJOR misunderstanding evident in your post on 03/26/2008 12:11 PM. You wrote: "If I were to add an additional 200 sq ft (100x2) to a floorplan that is currently 760 sq ft on the main floor (increasing it by 20+%), you better believe that extra space would go into a bigger kitchen, not airlock entrances at each end of the house."
What I wrote in my previous post was: "...build an extra 100ft^2(ish)... " It seems I needed to have explained that the common use of the ^ symbol is to show that the next number is an exponent as in 100ft^2, meaning 100"square feet!" That ^ is the button on a scientific calculator to perform an exponential function. It is also "SHIFT 6" on a computer keyboard. Apparently you are not familiar with this kind of notation, and you presumed that it was a typo, but in fact I did not write 100x2--scroll up and check it out. Certainly I would never describe a space of 100x2 ft.?!!? You must think I'm a whack-job.
An airlock entry can be as small as 5ft x 7 ft and a very roomy one would be 100sq.ft. and still include the coat closet and bench for changing shoes.
Lastly, it is unfortunate that you assumed(because of unfamiliarity of what 100ft^2 means) that I am so flush with cash that I am indiscriminate with how much/big my home will be. I am as concerned as anyone on this forum with cost/efficiency/integrity/comfort, other wise why would I be here on a "green" website? Please try and give me a little more credit than that before you shoot from the hip again: I'm guessing that for you, the square footage is pretty much irrelevant: "Hell, just slap on another couple rooms!" :) --you guessed wrong.
I am just here trying to learn some things I don't know and contribute what I believe are valuable lessons learned from prior experience. I don't think I deserve your wisecracks.
With any and all respect that you are due, and not trying to sound like a smartass,
Dave |
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lambabbey
Registered Users
Posts:71
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| 03/28/2008 11:13 AM |
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Dave:
I was unfamiliar with that notation. Thanks for the clarification. I typically just write out 'sq ft.' No worries. Bottomline, I've taken your advice and actually added the air-lock entry. Now I just need to figure out how small I can make it before it gets absurd.
Thanks again,
John |
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John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
PO Box 623
Union, ME 04863
E-mail: orchard@lambabbey.com |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1280
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| 03/28/2008 12:28 PM |
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Posted By djschrall on 03/28/2008 7:56 AM
An airlock entry can be as small as 5ft x 7 ft and a very roomy one would be 100sq.ft. and still include the coat closet and bench for changing shoes.
Something as simple as this would be effective, and not really expand your footprint very much(sorry about the quality of the drawing!).
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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xexpat
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 03/28/2008 1:22 PM |
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What about using the old fashioned storm door?
exepat |
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lambabbey
Registered Users
Posts:71
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| 03/28/2008 1:50 PM |
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Old fashioned storm door? You might as well move into a doublewide and get one of those huge tractor tire planters for the front yard.
John |
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John A Gasbarre
Lamb Abbey Orchards
PO Box 623
Union, ME 04863
E-mail: orchard@lambabbey.com |
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djschrall
Registered Users
Posts:25
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| 03/28/2008 3:08 PM |
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John,
Any size that is big enough to walk into and have enough room to close one door and open the other one is big enough. JC's drawings(even without dimensions) show exactly what is needed, and even includes the coat closet. The big deal is that you are not letting the cold air blow into the actual living quarters. It is confined to the entry, which does not have to be much of a heated space, simply a buffer between the cold outside and the warm inside.
My 2 cents worth.
Dave |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1280
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| 03/28/2008 8:12 PM |
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Posted By lambabbey on 03/28/2008 1:50 PM
Old fashioned storm door? You might as well move into a doublewide and get one of those huge tractor tire planters for the front yard.
Funny. Don't forget the rusted out pickup parked out front.
Back to the storm door. All it would do is prevent air infiltration and add some thermal value. But, once the entry door is opened(storm door would have to be open also), cold air can flow into the living space. No airlock! A storm door is no substitute.
My drawing is similar to my current house. The difference is that I don't have that second door. But, it's a decent space with that front window(next to the door), and a skylight on a vaulted ceiling above. Plenty of light!
I could have easily added the 'air lock', but wasn't thinking about it at 'design time'. A mistake on my part %^), especially considering the amount of wind at this location. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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xexpat
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 03/29/2008 7:10 AM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 03/28/2008 8:12 PM
Back to the storm door. All it would do is prevent air infiltration and add some thermal value.
That is what a storm door is intended to do. Doors are such a weak spot they need all the help they can get if you live in the north. I have spent most of my life living in places where they are quite useful. Like Carhartt outerwear, it may not be fashionable, but it serves a purpose.
You are right....a storm door is no substitute for an entry vestibule. They are, however, worthwhile for those that do not have the luxury of a vestibule or mud room entrance if you are interested in saving a few BTU.
xexpat
(who prefers to live in climates where sun shades are needed more than vestibules and storm doors) |
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ronaldsauve
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 04/01/2008 9:50 PM |
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| If you have radiant heat, then an airlock/open door/air transfer is almost a moot topic. It can still have advantages, but it is not as critical. If you have hot air heat, then you really need an airlock or you will lose your heat bigtime. |
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GreenHomeImprovements
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 04/01/2008 10:11 PM |
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Here's my 2 cents:
1. Make sure your entry door is ordered with a "jamb saver", it replaces the bottom few inches of the frame with a material that does rot out. I have seen most brands of doors rot out where the jamb meets the sill if the door is exposed to the weather.
2. If you can order a fir jamb instead of a finger jointed pine frame it will last a long time. Also a fir jamb will not fall apart if your storm door gets caught by the wind.
3. If you do add a storm door and your entry door has glass you will need to make sure that the storm door does not void the glass warranty.
4. Look into a fiberglass entry door, they do not dent as easy as most cheap (thin) steel doors.
5. Look at the Schlage handle sets, they carry a lifetime tarnish warranty. |
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GreenHomeImprovements
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 04/01/2008 10:21 PM |
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That cracks me up! Are you talking about the wood ones or the tin ones? The old tin ones actually outlast most of the modern doors.
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