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CaelandCoen
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 06/02/2008 3:22 PM |
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My wife has picked a house plan out of a magazine that offers about 90% of what we want. We're hoping to start building in late 2009/ early 2010. We have a couple of acres of land in NW PA right a couple of miles off of Lake Erie.
All of these building systems make some sense but the more I've been reading the more I'm worried about overkill. I was bound and determined that we were going with Geothermal, SIPS, and radiant floor heating.
But the more I've read we have totally unobstructed Southern exposure and a house plan with a lot of open floor space and maybe too many windows. Living halfway between Cleveland and Buffalo means we're not exactly in a sunny climate. The property does seem to have a lot of wind potential.
I was talking to some folks that went with geothermal. All 4 houses absolutely loved it. When I talked to their guy he told me that I wanted to stay away from radiant heat. I just figured I was using a fluid it would make sense to stay to another fluid.
I guess my question is, Where do I start? How do I know what works, what won't, and what is a waste of my money. Our hope was to have most of the ideas in line so we could start the pricing this coming winter.
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BooUrns!
Registered Users
Posts:6
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| 06/03/2008 2:04 AM |
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Are you going to manage this construction project yourself? Not recomended unless you have some experience in the building industry.
If not, start shopping for an architect/custom builder. Look at their previous work and decide if their designs fit into the style of home you desire. They should be able to tell you how much your ideas will cost and if they are permissible in the area you want to build. From there it becomes a how much issue. They should also be more informed on a wide range of heating systems as opposed to one contractor who might prefer to steer you towards a particular system.
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Road Block
Registered Users
Posts:46
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| 06/03/2008 7:41 AM |
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Absolutely hire an architect, we did and yeah its costing us $19k but it is well worth the changes and advice he has provided. We did pretty much the same thing as you, find some basic plans and made a lot of changes. I have learned that they do not normally get into the details of the HVAC, electrical, plumbing systems. They will get involved if you want but do you really want a $250/hr guy doing the same job a $100/hr guy will do? Also they do not manage the construction unless you really want to pay a lot, they do charge travel time.
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Road Block
Registered Users
Posts:46
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| 06/03/2008 7:59 AM |
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| I forgot to add, even if you cannot afford something now, make provisions for the infrstructure. Then when you can afford it or technology catches up to you the cost of installation is minimized. We're allowing for home automation, grey water, solar, wind and a backup generator. |
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Halcyon
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 06/03/2008 5:14 PM |
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| If you are serious about going green, it is best to have a consulting firm work together with the architects. Together they will design the healthiest and most efficient home. I have noticed many companies that will design on your budget, and although a slight upfront cost, a green home will payitself back in a few years with a positive ROI. If anyone wants to contact me check out www.hegreen.com |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 06/04/2008 7:10 AM |
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Caeland,
check your private messaging box |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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The Panel Guy
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/04/2008 11:39 PM |
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You actually have several options. It is my belief that unless you're looking for a unique design, one of those one in a lifetime designs, an architect is not always the way you want to go. The majority of Architects are not up to speed on alternative building methods and few of them have studied "Green". If you have a design that you have found and like, I suggest searching out either an architect for designer that knows alternative building systems and has a strong sense of green buildling materials and practices.
Another great option is to work with a Design/Build company that is knowledgeable about systems and green practices. The Design/Build company specializes in hitting your target budget for the comprehensive build.
I can't stress it enough that it is important, no matter who you choose to work with, that they have the skills to pre-budget the entire scope of the development before putting any pencil to paper. It's been my experience that far too many architects and designers don't make this a practice and you end up paying $19K in design fees for something you can't afford to build.
The Panel Guy |
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MDiver
Registered Users
Posts:28
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| 06/04/2008 11:44 PM |
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| Depending where you live and what is required of your drawings to pass approvals, an architect may not be the best choice. I am an Architectural Tech. and where I live, you do not require an architect to draw your house plans. I regularly draw plans for a couple of custom home builders, every once in a while they have clients that come to the table with plans that they purchased from an Architect (and spent some pretty big bucks). We have had to redraw the houses a number of times, just because some details didn't work out, and sometimes Architects are out of touch with what happens in the residential market and they end up with some building designs that just aren't cost effective. I'm not saying that all architects are like this, I know that some are great at drawing houses, just be sure to check portfolios AND references (that are relavent to what your building). I am sorry to say it, but I cringed when I heard that BooUrns spent 19K on his planning, I really hope that you got the attention you deserved and the support of the Architect throught the project. I have redrawn houses for other people that spent the 19K just to find out that not everything was very well thought out. |
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GeorgiaTom
Registered Users
Posts:130
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| 06/05/2008 7:08 AM |
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In Florida you are required to have an Architect or Engineer sign and seal plans, we use a drafting service familiar with steel sip construction and then reviewed, signed and sealed by a structural engineer.
cost is about .75 cent per sq.ft. of area under roof for the whole package |
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richntiff
Registered Users
Posts:28
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| 06/05/2008 11:17 AM |
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I'm going to be hiring a residential designer for approx. $1500 to finalize the design on my 2200sf SIP home. His price includes foundation plan, floor plan, two typical wall sections, 4 elevation views, all headers sized, roof layout, etc. He showed me an example plan of his, and it's very good, extremely detailed. He's also a builder and will quote me on erecting the SIP shell, interior framing, and roof system. Granted, I gave him my floorplan already drafted up, so he is estimating much less time than a typical customer. But, for 99.9% of people building a typical home, I can't understand why you would spend the money on an architect. Keep in mind that residential designers come in different flavors as well, I've talked with a couple others who would give me a product good enough to get my permits, but not nearly detailed enough for me to ensure a smooth, mostly error free construction process. They were cheaper, but for a reason. Shop around, meet with several, and go with the most professional you can find.
I'm going to general my project myself - I'm a professional civil engineer (highways/transportation), and I have good remodeling/construction experience. I will bid out most of the work, but do my own electrical and finish work, and potentially the footings/foundation, and slab work. I have the advantage of being very familiar with contractors, the bidding/bonding/etc processes, and estimating/scheduling for construction. I wouldn't recommend someone with no experience try to manage their own project, but LOTS of owner builders do it, with varying degrees of success. For what it's worth - typical construction prices here in northern WI are in the $140-$160/sf range. For a standard stick-built house. I should be able to build my SIP house for under $100/sf (with a conventional roof, insulated to R-60+). On 2200sf - that's a LOT of savings.
As far as the different technologies - I think a LOT of HVAC/plumbers have made a LOT of money on radiant heating. It's a good technology, but I think the costs far outweigh the benefits. When you consider than in a SIP or ICF home you have to have a duct system placed for your HRV or ERV, then throw in a 96% efficient gas furnace with a variable speed ECM fan, radiant heat gets harder to justify. Geothermal probably as well - but geoththermal is just so darn cool :-)
Bottom line - I think in a SIP or ICF house, radiant does not make sense - it will never pay for itself, and the additional equipment you still need to provide whole-house ventilation is a big duplication of effort. Geothermal makes more sense, but it is pricey. Again, the payoff for geothermal in a SIP or ICF house is looong, but there are many intangibles to geothermal that make it appealing from a green standpoint. I'd love to go geothermal in my new house, but doubt I'll be able to do it right away. I plan on having ducts sized to accomodate geothermal in the future, but will go with a properly sized gas furnace for now. |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 06/05/2008 12:10 PM |
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Posted By richntiff on 06/05/2008 11:17 AM
Bottom line - I think in a SIP or ICF house, radiant does not make sense - it will never pay for itself, and the additional equipment you still need to provide whole-house ventilation is a big duplication of effort. Geothermal makes more sense, but it is pricey. Again, the payoff for geothermal in a SIP or ICF house is looong, but there are many intangibles to geothermal that make it appealing from a green standpoint. I'd love to go geothermal in my new house, but doubt I'll be able to do it right away. I plan on having ducts sized to accomodate geothermal in the future, but will go with a properly sized gas furnace for now.
In my future house I will be putting in radiant. There are 2 basic reasons for that:
- The house will only need heating(no A/C)...
- I plan on installing Active Solar...
Why spend all of that money for GeoThermal when you can Super Insulate and cut your Heat Loss/Gain to a fraction of a 'standard' house? Also, please remember that Geo uses copious amounts of electricity. And, if you Super Insulate, it gets harder to justify the expense.
Your 'duct' comment is interesting. Why would you size forced air ducts any differently when you are using Geo instead of, say, natural gas? |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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richntiff
Registered Users
Posts:28
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| 06/05/2008 4:11 PM |
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It's been my understanding that typically geo ductwork requires more air to be moved over a conventional forced air furnace, due to lower temps coming off the heat exchanger, hence the slightly larger ductwork. Again, I'm not an HVAC expert, I've just picked this up in conversation. Am I wrong?
I agree - insulation/airtight construction is #1 - this is where you should be putting the money in your house. No question about it. I'm building with R-60+ roof, R-33 SIP walls. (and conventional countertops - no granite, can't afford it ;-) I think the super high R walls (R-50) are not necessary. Most heat lost is through the roof system. You need a good R in your wall and no air exchange - that's were you save energy on your wall system. I think R-33 SIP should do that just fine, and I'm in climate zone 7.
Geo uses more electricity than other forms of heating/cooling. Copious? I dunno, factor in that you don't use any natural gas/LP/etc at the heating source. Bottom line is I believe that for all intents and purposes, both radiant and geo don't make much sense in a super-insulated house or SIP/ICF house if you look at it from a pure economic payback standpoint. I choose not to look solely at economic payback as my driving factor - there is a social/global factor as well. Around here, to do radiant properly, you are going to darn near buy a geo system. (I'm not positive on this, but the numbers I've seen seem to support it). I just think that, from what I've seen, read, and heard, the radiant systems, unless installed with a high thermal mass floor (gypcrete, etc.) just don't live up to the hype. Certainly no staple up system will. The energy savings over conventional forced air is nil - the claims of gained comfort have come about from conventional stick frame construction with/oversized shortcycling forced air furnaces. Build a supertight house with properly sized forced air system, and suddenly radiant doesn't look so good to me. Why not run ductwork to serve your HRV and heating system - take care of IAQ and heating/cooling (I will have central air) all in one shot?
But to each his own, that's why we all have choices :-)
Active solar? Good for you if you can do it. 10grand per kilowatt. Ouch. I'd love to do it - I'm hoping to be able to swing solar DHW, if not, I'll set up for it to be added at a later date. As the active solar technology advances and comes down in price, I'll get onto that bandwagon too.
The Passive Hauses heat using a small electric heater placed in the core of the HRV - now THAT'S energy effiency! Of course, they are almost all sitting in much more moderate climates than northern Wisconsin :-) |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 06/05/2008 6:25 PM |
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Posted By richntiff on 06/05/2008 4:11 PM
It's been my understanding that typically geo ductwork requires more air to be moved over a conventional forced air furnace, due to lower temps coming off the heat exchanger, hence the slightly larger ductwork. Again, I'm not an HVAC expert, I've just picked this up in conversation. Am I wrong?
I don't know. That's why I asked! I never heard that. I lived in an all electric house once, and I don't recall the size of the ducts.
I agree - insulation/airtight construction is #1 - this is where you should be putting the money in your house. No question about it. I'm building with R-60+ roof, R-33 SIP walls. (and conventional countertops - no granite, can't afford it ;-) I think the super high R walls (R-50) are not necessary. Most heat lost is through the roof system. You need a good R in your wall and no air exchange - that's were you save energy on your wall system. I think R-33 SIP should do that just fine, and I'm in climate zone 7.
I think that you have it down. I will be pushing for R-40 walls, and doing about the same R-55+ for the lid.
Geo uses more electricity than other forms of heating/cooling. Copious? I dunno, factor in that you don't use any natural gas/LP/etc at the heating source. Bottom line is I believe that for all intents and purposes, both radiant and geo don't make much sense in a super-insulated house or SIP/ICF house if you look at it from a pure economic payback standpoint.
I agree. But just looking at the Geo, it's a Heat Pump(water based). Lots of electricity. And, to me that kind of expense, doesn't 'pencil' with the near 'Super Insulated' house that you'll have(I consider Super Insulating having near, or greater, than R-40 walls).
Active solar? Good for you if you can do it. 10grand per kilowatt. Ouch. I'd love to do it - I'm hoping to be able to swing solar DHW, if not, I'll set up for it to be added at a later date. As the active solar technology advances and comes down in price, I'll get onto that bandwagon too. 'Active Solar' is using Solar Collectors(water), not Photovoltaics. I just plan on heating lots of water, and storing it in a large(5k gallon) tank. And, my location in Colorado has a very high Solar Isolation.
I'm not criticizing your efforts or ideas. You are way ahead of most people in your quest. And, it's obvious that you've been doing your homework!
Good Luck!
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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richntiff
Registered Users
Posts:28
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| 06/05/2008 10:50 PM |
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jc - gotcha! We are on the same page here I think :-) Certainly no offense taken - and I hope I didn't offend you in any way. I'm pretty new to alot of these concepts, but I'm an information sponge, I have to research stuff and over analyze everything 1/2 to death. It's just my nature!
Active solar - do you have any links you could provide for me w/more info? I wrongly assumed you meant a PV system :-) I'm also not familiar with the term 'Solar Isolation'??
And yep - around here few have heard of a SIP panel, and when I tell them R30+ walls, they get a funny look on their face... 'But code is only R-19' - and I say, ok - gas is $4.09 a gallon today and LP is through the roof, with natural gas rising often in double digit percentages every year. When do YOU think energy is going to get cheaper? Then, they start to get it.... :-)
To the original poster - I apologize for yanking this thread off track. I hope my original reply was of some help to you, along with the other responses you got....
Back on track :-) |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
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| 06/06/2008 7:14 AM |
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Posted By richntiff on 06/05/2008 10:50 PM
jc - gotcha! We are on the same page here I think :-) Certainly no offense taken - and I hope I didn't offend you in any way. I'm pretty new to alot of these concepts, but I'm an information sponge, I have to research stuff and over analyze everything 1/2 to death. It's just my nature!
Active solar - do you have any links you could provide for me w/more info? I wrongly assumed you meant a PV system :-) You could take a look at Solar Harvest(Look at Brochures and Technical Documents). He's got both Active and PV. And, I made a typo. It's Solar Insolation. A map can be found Here.
Good Luck!
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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richntiff
Registered Users
Posts:28
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| 06/06/2008 10:33 AM |
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| Thanks for the links - looking at stuff like that makes me want to move south :-) I'm in one of the worst zones in the country (northern WI) for solar insolation..... |
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