clancy
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| 03/23/2008 9:29 AM |
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I am hoping to try and compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I know there are inherent differences in the two methods of construction but I am looking at R values, initial cost c of panel/SIP, transportation, placement cost, and long term return. I believe the SIP panels would have to be installed by an experienced crew and the steel stud panels could be installed by local contractors. . I am trying to do a cost analysis for 6" SIP wall - (PU core) versus a panelized steel stud system of 6"/150mm stud filled with PU (16" o.c.) . I would then have to attach OSB and add 1" PU exterior insulation to act as thermal barrier for the steel stud. I may also attach the 1" PU to the SIP panel. I realize this is probably overkill but believe the long term payback would be worth it.
Both panel designs should be similiar with electrical conduit raceways, electrical box placement, etc.
I have been quoted a price of under 8.00 sq. ft for steel stud panel (this does not include OSB or 1"PU exterior). This does include conduit, electrical box, header/etc. The price does not include transportation.
The question I have is can a similiar or better SIP panel be provided at the same or better cost? Also, am I flawed in my thinking that the two wall designs will bring similiar results?
Thanks for any replys and insight. |
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cmkavala
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Posts:859
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| 03/23/2008 9:34 AM |
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| Why wouldn't you just use a steel SIP wall and roof panel, with no splines or studs needed? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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clancy
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Posts:10
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| 03/23/2008 9:50 AM |
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Can you provide additional details of the steel sip wall. The exterior is to be finished with siding/stone.
I think a conventional roof with blown in insulation will be more cost effective versus a steel roof panel. Please provide additional details for your point of view.
Thanks.
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cmkavala
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Posts:859
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| 03/23/2008 10:16 AM |
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Posted By clancy on 03/23/2008 9:50 AM
Can you provide additional details of the steel sip wall. The exterior is to be finished with siding/stone.
I think a conventional roof with blown in insulation will be more cost effective versus a steel roof panel. Please provide additional details for your point of view.
Thanks.
Clancy;
I think the tipping point is here and SIPs are becoming more cost effective than conventional
Attached is wall/roof connection
lath for stone is with screw attachment, as is also approved for fiber cement and vinyl siding
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Attachment: File0159.pdf
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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jmagill
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Posts:98
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| 03/23/2008 11:09 AM |
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I don't quite understand the addition of more exterior insulation, after the fact.
The cost effectiveness of SIPs is that you have an all in one product that saves on labor. Adding several more layers to the panel adds to the labor factor.
Most SIPs( metal or osb) come in several combinations to give you the R-value you require right from the factory. You should be able to find metal stud SIPs that do not have thermal bridging.
The one barrier in your comparison may be the intergrated electric raceways and boxes. The metal skinned SIPs I have seen don't have them and not all metal stud SIPS do as well. |
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clancy
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Posts:10
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| 03/23/2008 3:32 PM |
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The only reason I am considering adding the 1" PU is to provide a thermal barrier for panelized steel stud system. I agree it would not be necessary for the SIP. However, in adding it to the steel stud system I not only provide the thermal barrier (OSB and 1") I also increase the R value.
I guess I could compare a thinner steel system ( 4"-100mm) with the addition of the OSB and PU. This would be more equivalent to marketed panels of 6" SIP.
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PanelCrafters
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Posts:1341
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| 03/23/2008 5:23 PM |
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Posted By clancy on 03/23/2008 9:29 AM
I am hoping to try and compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges. I know there are inherent differences in the two methods of construction but I am looking at R values, initial cost c of panel/SIP, transportation, placement cost, and long term return.....I have been quoted a price of under 8.00 sq. ft for steel stud panel (this does not include OSB or 1"PU exterior). This does include conduit, electrical box, header/etc. The price does not include transportation.
The question I have is can a similiar or better SIP panel be provided at the same or better cost?
Sure. A 6.5" EPS prefabbed panel should cost no more than $6 per sqft. I'm sure that PU panels are in the same range. More R-Value? Cool, I believe in Super Insulating(while building). An R-40 - 10.25" EPS panel should cost around $7. Wire chases, the whole 9 yards. So, why go to all of the extra effort? And, why have steel studs? You really don't have to. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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clancy
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Posts:10
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| 03/23/2008 7:48 PM |
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I know of a couple of panel suppliers that provide PU panels with chases and the whole 9 yards. My early inquiries provided quotations far exceeding the 8.00 sq/ft charge. These were not oversized panels either. (4'x10") I talked to a couple of suppliers in the Northeast and their estimates were higher than the 8.00 sq.ft for PU- 6" wall.
I know EPS is less expensive than PU. Is there anyone out there with an estimate/name to contact for PU 6" walls? |
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CTP
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Posts:14
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| 03/26/2008 6:52 PM |
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clancy,
Where are you building? I recently quoted a local builder (Asheville, NC) about $9 sq ft for our 6.5" R-40 (OSB/OSB) Eco-Panel with electrical boxes, chases, insulated headers, window and door openings and all the corners--our company is the only sip manufacturer offering a continuous thermal boundary. A continuous R-26 panel was about $7.50. We also have several siding options (no house wrap needed) and this local builder will be using LP Smartside to create a board and batten look. With the integrated siding their costs rose to about $10.50 sq ft R40 panels and about $9 R-26 panels. All these panels are 9' tall. None of these prices include shipping, but we do have 3 manufacturing facilities in the U.S. Doing a conventional roof will be less expensive, but I've done dozens of blower door tests (some thermal imaging) and it can be a problem area for infiltration. Also, there can be losses attributed to convective heat flow and surface temperatures with blown in insulation. The builder I mentioned above will most likely use our Eco-Panel walls and spray foam the roof deck instead of using our roof panels to try and save some costs. This helps to keep HVAC equipment and or ducts within the thermal boundary--something every building scientist I know/work with recommends. Spraying the flats with a thinner layer of foam followed by spray in fiberglass or cellulose is another option. Also consider the offgassing that spray in PU foam can be associated with. Let the house ventilate for a few days. Also, most SIPS are very user friendly to any competent framing crew--definitely go with a product that has done most of the intregating associated with panel systems.
craig@eco-panels.com |
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clancy
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Posts:10
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| 03/26/2008 7:43 PM |
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Craig,
I am building in northeast PA. The closest SIP supplier to me is Murus. Can you tell me where you are located ?
I need to make certain that we have a tight structure and one with high R values due to the constant wind.
Thanks for the reply and interest.
Clancy |
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CTP
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Posts:14
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| 03/27/2008 10:05 AM |
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Clancy,
Our closest facility to you is in Mocksville, NC--close to Statesville, NC. Although Eco-Panels has some definite advantages over Murus (good product), how much have they been quoting you? Both products when PROPERLY sealed should give you a tight house and at 6 inches of PU foam (ours has the greenest blowing agent recognized by LEED) you have stopped 99% of heat flow with our continuous thermal boundary and maintain about 90% of the indoor surface temperature. You may know that EPS will not even come close to these number at 6.5 inches. Also, there is a burn test video on youtube showing the significant difference in burn characteristics between EPS and our PU. Look under SIP BURN TEST. What kind of foundation are you going to use? Defining your thermal boundary is paramount to low energy costs, comfort and indoor air quality.
craig@eco-panels.com |
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clancy
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Posts:10
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| 03/30/2008 5:30 PM |
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Craig,
Right now we are deciding between an ICF and a superior wall (pre cast) with additional 2" PU insulation.
Since it is going to be a walkout basement with full exposure on at least one at part of another side we want to maximize R value.
Murus still has not responded to my second inquiry for a quotation/estimate - ballpark figure.
I will try and contact them by phone to see if I get any better results than by e-mail.
Currently your estimate for PU is higher than estimates for EPS of comparable R values. (though thicker panels) |
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Bob I
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Posts:10
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| 04/01/2008 6:36 PM |
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SF COST OF SIPS
The quotes that are being thrown out - $8/SF etc - is that installed?
Bob I |
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Paulcf
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Posts:17
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| 04/01/2008 9:31 PM |
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Hi Craig, I'm assuming you build Polyurethane SIPs...and I was intrigued by your comment about spray foam PU offgassing. Do you have any documents on this? Iwould love to have this for factual presentation to my clients when they are looking at ICF's, EPS SIPs and spray polyurethane.
Don't worry, we fabricate polyurethane SIPs here in Calgary, Alberta, Canada. Our 6 1/2" OSB/OSB panels are R-44. I'd like to know more about your continuous thermal boundary however your website is under construction. Maybe you're referring to the performance of SIPs which we too have low ACH results.
If you're not building with SIPs, why bother? (my version with credit to PanelCrafters for that!) |
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mistersip
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Posts:1
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| 04/01/2008 11:06 PM |
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From everything I've seen, Murus is a reputable supplier in this area, PA & NJ. I’ve heard nothing but good things about them. Another company that appears to have their stuff together and supplies to this area is R-Control, You may want to pick their brains to.
http://www.r-control.com/sips.asp
Just my two cents.
Be SAFE
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Ben.Keim
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Posts:1
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| 04/02/2008 12:48 AM |
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Clancy,
I work for the local distributor of both R-Control SIP's as well as an insulated concrete form (Nudura). We are based in the Reading, PA area, and I would be happy to help you. If you are interested please take a look at our web site www.ManningMaterials.com, you can find the office phone number there, ask for Ben.
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CTP
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Posts:14
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| 04/02/2008 8:03 PM |
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Clancy,
Have you looked at double wall high PSI precast concrete panels with integrated PUR for your foundation walls with SIP panels used on the daylight side? These pre-insulated precast concrete panels give you the added benefit of thermal mass, integrated conduit/electrical boxes, strength and ofcourse easy to waterproof and finish on both sides. I'll agree with the other posters on Murus having a quality product, but I would suggest if you go with them to have pvc instead of cardboard chases to run electrical through. For those who asked, we have a patented corner system that creates a continuous thermal boundary--crucial to proper r-valuations. It was one of the main reasons for me joining this innovative company.
Clancy, comparing prices is always difficult until final proposals are submitted outlining what is really included in your order. Over 90% of the SIP market is dominated by EPS manufacturers and although I am a supporter of building out of SIPS, EPS is the low price option for several reasons. Also, comparing R-Values between EPS and PUR is very scientific. There is a reason why the best refrigerators and hot water tank systems use PUR. Also consider structural components of EPS and PUR as well as vapor barrier and fire performance.
Hope this helps.
craig@eco-panels.com |
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CTP
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Posts:14
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| 04/02/2008 8:11 PM |
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None of the above mentioned quotes to a local builder included labor, but it is an important calculation when using any panelized, manufactured or prefabed/precast system. All the quotes listed are estimates and prices vary based on the scope of each project.
Cheers,
craig@eco-panels.com |
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