Cattail Bill
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| 04/10/2008 12:34 PM |
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I do not use hard coat type stucco but I have a customer who has hired a sub to do the hard coat on the home that they built.
The architec has noted on the print that 15# felt is applied over the foam before the lathe is attached, now on the eifs systems we do not do this.
The BI is now requiring the felt as well, so the ? is this where can I find documented information that agrees with this or disagrees with this. |
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Chris Johnson
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| 04/10/2008 9:13 PM |
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I can't give you the documentation, but in CA it happens on every ICF project.
It's a reality we just face and accept.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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floridaIcf
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| 04/13/2008 7:54 PM |
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| Are you talking about 15# felt paper that you put on roofs?? If so I am thinking you must be doing this for amoisture barrier maybe. Here in Florida we apply the self adhesive fiber mesh to prevent stucco from cracking but not for moisture. BTW the foam doesnt let moisture by anyway does it. Chuck............ |
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Cattail Bill
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| 04/13/2008 8:18 PM |
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| Yes the 15# felt for roofs that is what the guy put on the prints and he now has the BI thinking it is needed as well, and yes that is what they said that the felt will be the moisture barrier. |
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floridaIcf
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| 04/13/2008 8:54 PM |
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| Interesting!!!!!! I am thinking that if the concrete walls dont need it then why in the heck do ICF walls. All the stuff that I have read has said that a concrete block wall acts as a sponge it absorbs water. I sorta understand what they what to acheive but geez! Chris how is the felt applied and what measures are taken to assure that the felt will not slide so to speak down the wall after the stucco is applied, or do you apply the wire lathe with felt that we use to cover wood and colunms which would be very $$. Chuck...... |
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Chris Johnson
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| 04/14/2008 12:14 AM |
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The felt is held in place with 1" roofing nails into the foam, wire mesh is installed over it and tec screws are used to hold the wire and paper to the webs on the ICF.
I am hearing 3 coat stucco is running around $ 6.00 sq.ft. for large jobs and up for smaller jobs, Architectural Coatings are about $ 2.00 sq.ft. more
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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FlaICF
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| 04/14/2008 3:09 PM |
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| Just 2 more cents. There is a recommendation that paper back lathe be applied for the stucco. We deal with stucco and use stucco fiber in all three coats and apply to the foam with the clean, rasp,link sequence right to the foam. Also the use of rolled fiber mesh in the base is acceptable. The building depts. we deal with have called us numerous times on this question looking to us for some guidance. I have stated before I look at this as a contractor/installer warranty issue. Whatever is deemed the best method to insure warranty of product and install on the jobs requirements is what should be considered. |
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floridaIcf
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| 04/14/2008 8:26 PM |
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| Thanks Chris for the explanation. I sorta figured you have some kind of wire mesh behind it. The way that we apply it is we pressure clean the surface then roll the self adhesive mesh on then we apply a coat of bonding agent onto the wall. When the guy mixes the stucco he also adds a little bonding agent with it. I have heard of people adding the fiber but I never have. Do you still do the mesh or bonding agent. I have recently got into the synthetic stucco made by parex. I seem to like it very well. I have done two houses so far and seems to be awsome. Chuck...... |
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dale@versa-form
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| 04/17/2008 3:12 PM |
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I've been in the construction business 30 years and specificly the ICF industry for the last 15 years. The use of felt paper under hard coat stucco comes from a code that was written many years ago by the Lath & Plaster Assoc. for AIA. At the time this was written the primary construction method was wood frame. You can find good references for stucco applications from the Texas Lath & Plastering Assc. (do a google search). The reference about CMU block applications and hard coats generally do not use felt paper as a waterproofing membrain. Most architect specify cold applied mastics (black tar). Then the lath is nailed to the block and cement palster applied over the lath. These are specifications that were written over 30 years ago and are not appicable to modern day ICF construction.
Having said all the above it is worth noteing that as an ICF manufacturer I always recomend that builders, installer, and home owners building a new ICF home to waterproof the entire house just like any other house.
The polystrene used to make ICF's doesn't require water proofing within itself because of it's permability, nor will the concrete inside the icf be affected by water. The issue today however is the wall coverings placed over the icf inside and out; are still subject to water damage. An even bigger issue is the fact that people file law suits over the least little thing these days. I recomend you waterproof an ICF house or building with house wrap (tyvek) instead of felt paper. The reason not to use felt paper is because it contains asphalt oils in it. The oils in the asphalt paper may attack the eps foam in some icf's. Another issue we've seen in the south is the massive law suits that were filed over water damage and mold infestation in walls. I know there's evidence that mold in sold concrete slab wall made of icf are pratically non-existant. However I still recomend using the house wrap to wrap the entire house as CHEAP insurance to the builder, because of the liability issue. I've personally been an expert witness in cases where a lawyer went after a builder or home owner for defective trade practices and hidden defects for leaving out waterproofing (water barriers,sealants etc.). I was an expert witness on a home built for 1 million dollars 3 years ago with this exact issue. When the lawyers got threw with the builder it cost him 3 million to settle the case. The house wrap would have been cheap insurance. Don't leave yourself exposed. In Texas underlying defects are admisable in court for up to 2 years after they are discovered. The house I referenced above was 10 years old when the defects were discovered.
Dale |
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