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JinMTVT
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:18
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| 04/17/2008 12:45 AM |
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| Hi all, this is my first post,
and i thank you all for the very informative posts from most users on this forum.
It has helped me alot on different ICF related questions i had.
I will be diy my new house this summer
( need to start very soon now )
i have done alot of research and plannification for the last 2 years
i was seriously considering concrete floors,
with the Insul-Deck system, connected to exterior ICF walls, and some interior concrete walls
( load bearing walls for safe floor spans )
now that i have got quotes and that i sum it up,
i am not sure that it is WORTH the extra cost
because for me, it involves alot of extra work,
rental of equipment, material costs, security complications and i'd have to do alot of interior walls of the house with ICF concrete to support the different floors.
This alone accounts for 1/3 of the total ICF structure of the house, and then add on the 6-7$sq/ft pricing on the deck setup + shoring rentals + concrete ...
i haven't done the final count, but i am sure it will be over 11$ squ/ft final
and i have a bit over 5000sq/ft of floor/flat roof
to do..so it goes in the 50 000$ pretty fast
what is the relative cost of a first quality wood truss/wood floor ??
i have read from a few of you talking about speed floor product, i like the steel beams,
but there is no insulation and the steel goes up inside the concrete wich i think will help transmit sound and thermal
i will be using electrical underfloor heating for all of the house, wich is also a reason why i am considering full concrete floors
if i do not go with concrete floors,
can i install some 1" of "concrete" on a wood floor to set my heating cables in ?
the hole house is going to be ceramic/marble tiles
Also, i was quoted from 3.65$ to 4.10$ for different ICF systems, the price seems correct,
is it ?
Also,
if i would go with wood trusses/joists, what has the best performance?
thanks all for your time! |
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wes
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:394
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| 04/17/2008 7:19 AM |
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JinMTVT,
Where are you located?
What was your reasoning for considering concrete floor/roof system in the first place? |
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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renangle
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:102
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| 04/17/2008 8:07 AM |
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JinMTVT,
Our rule of thumb is that if a client of ours wants to put in an ICF floor system that's fine, but we are quick to point out that it will be very expensive especially when compared to a wood floor. The number that we throw out for a floor system through an experienced contractor is between $21 to $25 a sq.ft. and IF you try to "do it yourself" and mess up needing someone to come behind and correct your error that price will increase substantially!
The thermal benefit from an ICF floor system over a LVL or traditional floor system is going to be rather minimum in my opinion. If your envelope is ICF, where is the temperature fluctuation going to come from? It is somewhat similar to the question earlier about ICF and geothermal...if you want to do it fine, but it will take a long long time to get the money out of that system with the two combined...same would apply here.
If it were my house, I would make it very easy and put down a wood floor (LVL, traditional joist, etc) with OSB on top, then install backerboard over the OSB, then your electrical radiant heat, then tile and call it a day.
Best of luck,
renangle
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JinMTVT
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:18
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| 04/17/2008 9:44 PM |
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Renangle : isn't 21$/25$ abit over-expensive? what is the usual cost of regular wood trusses + plywood floors per square feet?
I was told that speed floor would run in the 4-5$square/f for their material
than add on some reusable plywoods + concrete
what i have come to understand is that the likes of insul deck = great loss of $$$ in foam volume that won't even be used at all
if you look at insul-deck forms when concrete is solid, there is alot of foam volume between the conrete joists, wich serves no purpose at all
so a system of the likes of speedfloor equals to less loss on material that will not have any benefits other tha pure forms
i'd require some foaming insulation under all of the concrete slabs for quality of finish
how thick of concrete can a floor trusses+plywood quality flooring system support? 1" ? more?
i was told that if the trusses and floor doesn't have enough flexural strength it is move and make the concrete slab break at mid poits ??
if speedfloor ends up beeing too expensive i might also consider having custom steel rolled sheet beams cut at my spec
and make my personal system with FEA analysis with concrete load + other loads factors
what do you think ?
The reason why i wanted to use concrete floors was firstly for the confort of the mass it adds and the other benefits ( accoustics and stability )
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:358
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| 04/18/2008 1:55 AM |
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Jin...
You are looking at Renangle's quote of $ 21/25 a sq.ft. (which is a complete package) and comparing it to Speed floor being $4-5 sq.ft. for materials. It is not a fair comparison since the speed floor is joist only, but at what spacing, height, grade or series, etc. add in subfloor, rim board, AB's. hangers, Simpson hardware, nails, screws, the list goes on and on then add in labor. Now what is your local price?
To help confuse you even more, I can usually supply and install hollow core panels for a floor incl. a 2" cap for less then an engineered floor system.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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GRickard
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:41
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| 04/18/2008 7:22 AM |
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Does anyone have any experience with prestressed concrete for floors?I wish I would have priced it before starting my house (I used 11 7/8" I-joist). There is a local manufacurer here that makesa couple of products that would make a great floor system. Check out www.deamron.com. |
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slenzen
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:179
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| 04/18/2008 2:10 PM |
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I'd need to stick w/ a poured floor system to have finished concrete intermediate floors w/ radiant heat system.
Here is a good source of multiple concrete floor systems.
http://www.cement.org/homes/ch_bs_floorroof.asp |
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renangle
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:102
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| 04/18/2008 2:33 PM |
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GRickard,
If it were my house, I would probably go with a silent joist system, an LVL, or engineered floor system. I would love to do a concrete floor (with radient heat), but when up against a wood floor it will be much more expensive. In addition, if you have a poured floor and you want hard wood floors you will probably need to put osb over the concrete then wood flooring over that, which is just a bit excessive for someone like me.
At the end of the day I think that it really comes down to cost, if you want the concrete floors go for it and enjoy them. If considering concrete floors, You should really consult a professional in your area, because if you try to do it yourself and something goes wrong or the floor isn't level (which are both easy to do), cost will increase quickly and it could turn out to be a nightmare. Deamron looks like an interesting product, but I don't know anything about it, so I couldn't provide a fair assessment. |
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Alton
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:337
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| 04/18/2008 6:02 PM |
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JinMTVT,
Would the concrete floor be over a basement or over a crawl space? What city and state do you plan to build in. What is the frost depth in your area? There are a lot of things you should consider while deciding which system to use.
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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Buntly
Registered Users
Basic Member
Posts:104
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| 04/18/2008 8:28 PM |
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It would seem that a prestressed concrete beam with radiant and a top coat of concrete would provide for a large heat reservoir, which could be good or bad. If you have some days where its 20 out and the next day it's 50, you could spend alot of energy chasing the thermal carryover,........etc. I've done a few suspended slabs, but they have been pan decking with 2" of concrete. I can't imagine an 8 or 10" prestressed with a 3" top coat. Lots of planning has to be done with prestressed. I spoke with a gentlemen locally who used prestressed for a 4000 sq ft home. These are not trade people friendly (ie residential trades). You may need to factor in the added cost of core drilling along with the fact that most are not familiar with working with the prestressed. In my area, prestressed runs about $10/sq ft installed for an 8" section,.......then add in the top coat etc. You may be able to eliminate a few beams, but then there is quite a bit of camber built into prestressed plank and you need to deal with that when you pour your cap. I am not saying it's a bad choice, just lots of things to consider
Bunt |
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dmaceld
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:513
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| 04/18/2008 11:43 PM |
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For what it's worth here's a comment by a complete non-involved third party. I'm building an ICF home. It has attracted a fair amount of interest by the neighbors in the subdivision. Most, if not all, are unfamiliar with ICF construction and are somewhat intrigued with the concrete construction method. Today my helper and I were installing I-joists when one of the neighbors, an older retired lady to whom we have explained the process previously, came by.
Her comment? "Boy, I sure am glad you aren't putting in a concrete floor. I have trouble with my feet and concrete floors are so hard on them." I've heard people complain many times in the past that concrete floors are hard on feet. Why, I don't really know. Give that thought the credit you think it's due and factor it into the equation for concrete floors.
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Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
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jmagill
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:98
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| 04/19/2008 8:17 AM |
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We live in SIP home with radiant in concrete floors.
Our floors are 1.5 inches of concrete poured over pex on a plywood deck and acid stained.
We put the floor joists on 1 foot centers and increased the depth to handle the load.
It was very cost effective and we love the results. Faster response times than a slab, wonderfull heated floors on a cold morning,
easy to maintain and clean(especially with muddy dogs and boots from the pasture), no striping.
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JinMTVT
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:18
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| 04/19/2008 3:19 PM |
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hi all , again thanks for the help!
i am up north in Quebec , still under 3-4ft of snow , but melting quickly!
usually the ground freezes down to a maximum of 5ft, this year was only 2ft because of very early snow ( 3ft+ in mid november )
again the reason why i wanted concrete floors are obviously comfort, stability , noise ...etc
jmagill: i am happy to hear that it is possible to have a thin concrete slab on regular wood joists ...have you summed up how many $ /square foot for your materials including joists/trusses??
i will try to contact Hambro early next week, as they seem to have a factory near in Quebec province , could help save on shipping costs,
thanks for who pointed out their existence.
i could probably use their steel joists and extend the product to use 1-2" of solid foam on wich to pour the concrete instead of plywood sheets
( using more lateral supports )
that way i would have both the slab and the isolation in 1 shot ..would probably have to work with 3.5"depth of slab though
jmagill: when you are talking about response time, aren't you monitoring the floor temp and trying to keep it stable ?
if you are working on cycles, how many degrees between stop and start points?
Alton: the concrete floors would be first, second and flat roof , the first floor beeing on a full 9' basement ( garage, HT room, service room and so on .. )
dmaceld: i don't see what is the difference between concrete and ceramic/marble tiles floors..i have ceramic tiles alot here, and have never been in any disconfort due
to their surface hardness factor.
i want to install ceramic or marble on 90%+ of floors surfaces ... we will have 2-3 kids soon, and i need a very low maintenance home
( won't even have any grass outside...forsest floor :)
renangle: there is no professional in my area, that i would give any work to .. i've talked to some arrogant people, some that don't even take 5 minutes to understand MY project ...those
get discarded extremely fast from my list, and 1 i have even told him to just forgive that we've talked after only 3 minutes ... during wich he was already trying to convince me with his
blabalbla product right after i had only told my name ..ahah
Buntly: 10$ isntalled is not that bad i believe. ..but still require alot of engi
and since i have no engineer working on anything of mine, i don't believe the city here would allow precasts ..too easy to spot for me :p
with joists, metal or wood..they won't see me work with tall cranes and everything .it'll pass
i was told that there are even no inspectors at all coming in my region to check new constructions if they are residential , ain't that cool :)
Can anyone tell me what is the pros/cons of metal VS wood joists/trusses ??
metal price is up, but so is wood around here
and if there is not company that can give me a good price on metal joists, i might just design myself
using engi software i have here and have some custom metal shop fabricate my joists
not that hard to do, just go a bit over everywhere
one part that could be complicated though, is where i would have a wall on the top floor,
situated almost at mid length of an un supported joist section, on wich there
will be another joist end section ... will have to modify my original plan some i believe!
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jmagill
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:98
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| 04/19/2008 3:39 PM |
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"jmagill: i am happy to hear that it is possible to have a thin concrete slab on regular wood joists ...have you summed up how many $ /square foot for your materials including joists/trusses??'
Joists were about 25% more, we laid all the pex ourselves, stained the concrete ourselves.
Did not work out the price per square foot but the finished floor was less than it would have cost for carpet or wood floors.
If I had to estimate , I think about $2.50 aa square foot not including pex. We had the flatwork done.
"jmagill: when you are talking about response time, aren't you monitoring the floor temp and trying to keep it stable ?
if you are working on cycles, how many degrees between stop and start points?"
We hold a stable temp during most of the heating season, but there are those few times a year that we get a frost in August ana need to turn on the heat( we live at 6500 feet in the Wyoming Rockies)
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JinMTVT
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:18
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| 04/20/2008 6:28 PM |
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wow, i am trying to work on my 3d plan again , going as if i'd have choosen steel joists with 2-3" concrete slab
and i have to say that it is proving rather difficult to modify without extensivly changing the base design
where the concrete beams from insul deck and it's slab would've made a strong connection with all other touching parts,
now i need to remove alot of interior walls from the ICF method to try and cut some costs down,
but then i have to keep enough to be able to sit the steel joists onto
right now, i believe that Hambro may have the easiest solution for me with their beams for concrete slab system
i'd probably have to modify how i use their product, to achieve my goals
but i at least can work with the spans ( the longest i have now is 26' )
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ebrocious
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:13
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| 04/21/2008 9:17 AM |
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I am currently breaking ground on a new 3200 sq. ft home in Indiana,PA. We are using steel bar joists from Structures of USA located in Johnstown,PA. I sent them the CADD drawings from my architect and within 2 weeks they engineered the proper joists and decking for my house. My longest span is 24' but I will have 3 1/2" of concrete on that with the Wirsbo in the concrete. My total steel package was slightly over $11,000 and this includes all the bar joists and the steel decking on top of that. Hambro came in at almost $20,000 for their system.
I will be hanging the bar joists on the outside ICF walls by welding them to an embedded steel plate on the top of the wall and the the internal I-BEAM. There will be bar joist that hang from steel I-BEAM to steel I-BEAM in the center portion of the house.
I did forget to mention that I will be placing 2" of styrofoam (4x8 sheets) on top of the metal decking for insulating and attachment of the Wirsbo.
If you have any further questions, feel free to email me at ebrocious@hotmail.com, I would have no problem sharing of the ideas that we are using along with cost estimates. |
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JinMTVT
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:18
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| 04/21/2008 8:59 PM |
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ebrocious! look at your emails later please! :)
i have talk to my local region salesrep for Hambro/Canam..wich are manufactured very close to my house ( 4-5hours drive..but within quebec limits )
The guy seemed to understand my needs, but i was quick to point to him that i am no amateur looking for a turn key soluting at any costs
the only thing wich i didn't like about him, is how he is trying to see the plans and charge per square foot instead of pricing the beams and the material
that is a bad start for me on the $$$ side, since 5000+square feet of flooring is considered a very very big house in my region
so i am sure that they will try to go on up on the $$$$ because of the possibility
usually people here seriously overcharge when you are buying alot, and undercharge when you are doing a very small project because they know u do not have the funds for more..
that is bad..because at my buisness, we give discounts for volume purchases...wich i would like to see when i purchase material elsewhere
the guy at hambro also didn't want to hear about my foam and using their system with a different method,
and was trying to convice me that regular Canam metal joists would be more expensive than the Hambro style joists..wich to me look 100% the same except for the top concrete plate
i was told though, that they can spawn up to 70' //wich is seriuosly good because if i cna span my 35-40' wide all along the house,
i will save ALOT on interior bearings wallls and such .. to be seen
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JinMTVT
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:18
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| 04/22/2008 11:03 PM |
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thinking about it, i don't really need concrete on the roof
i am asking on the SIP pannels if they believe we can use SIPS for walk on flat roof
that + metal joists @ 4' c-to-c would be easy to install if it is solid enough
how would you guys do the flat roof ?
i don't like wood as a supporting platform..trying to not use it as much as possible
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Joe Westfall
Registered Users
New Member
Posts:8
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| 04/23/2008 9:43 AM |
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| I would suggest interviewing several architects who are well-read and qualified to assist you. The $$$ you invest should prove beneficial... if you qualify their experiences. They are trained to advise and being such a large investment, I would not go it alone. ICF foundations with a non-wood SIP wall and roof system will be a very safe combo approach, based on our experience. |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Advanced Member
Posts:859
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| 04/23/2008 4:04 PM |
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| Attached is a light gauge joist system we have used many times in residential and light commercial. They can be decked with plywood or a steel pan & light weight concrete |
Attachment: File0177.PDF
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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