ReadyToRetire
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| 05/29/2008 5:47 PM |
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I didn't want to further hi-jack the SIPs pricing thread, so I'm starting this new one.
The Panel Guy,
Thank you for your answers on both the tooling
and orientation questions in the SIP pricing thread; they make sense.
And your note on the stepped foundation answers a question that I'd not
asked. But. . .
I'm a woodworker, and tight joints make or
break my projects: I can feel and see very small gaps. The idea of
butting up edges cut by a chain saw is -- explicit gerund deleted --
counter intuitive. But I don't build with expanding foam or cover the
joints with tape or mastic. So I'm, slowly, adopting a different mindset.
My
continuing discomfort centers on how the client would know enough to
accept and trust on-site cutting. It's easy to understand the
advantages of CNC cut panels; and it's easy to swallow hard when I hear
you explain that you're going to cut my expensive panels with a chain
saw. It's expensive to gather information on a builder, and, even more
so, on his individual crews. Do your clients never think to ask (which
wouldn't shock me) or, if they do, how do you reassure them?
Very respectfully,
Larry |
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wes
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| 05/30/2008 6:49 AM |
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Larry,
You may be the first person I have run into who actually believes that a 'factory-built' house would be better than a local carpenter built one. In fact, I've spent most of my career explaining why 'factory-built' is better (panelized, modular, trusses!)
While I still site cut panels, I would love to set up my own shop, and precut panels in a controlled setting. However, while machine cut panels may be prettier than my hand cut ones, they don't necessarily work any better. My experience with precut SIPS panels is limited, however, my experience with panelized conventional construction goes back over 30 years, and more recently with conventional modulars. And in that time, I've lost track of how many site corrections I've had to make on these factory-built components.
In short, it's not the machinery, but the men running it that makes a good product.
A crew of good experienced carpenters can create a project that is just as well built as a factory full of machinery.
And with that experience, if a problem is found, or if a client has to have a window moved 6 inches, it can be done.
But if your crew only knows how to nail the pieces together, and a problem occurs, then what do you do, wait for the factory to come out and fix it?
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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ReadyToRetire
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| 05/30/2008 4:10 PM |
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Wes,
A *competently run*, controlled process should yield a clearly better basic assembly than site built. I remember looking at a devolopment near Denver in the 70s where the
"builder" was in a rush to complete and sell. The molding around doors
and windows had been broken to length and nailed up. So the competent
limitation applies to site built also. I'm assuming that those who
care enough to monitor and post here are competent, so that wasn't a
shiv.
TPG pointed out that there are times when you need custom fitted panels for unusual foundation profiles, and you've pointed out that correction and changes to delivered products are also needed.
I'd think (hope?) that your issue could be addressed by spec-ing QC checks in the factory; but that's going back at least a generation on how the process should work. And my first thought was that TPG's issue be can be addressed by ordering the stepped panel longer than required and fitting. But that seems to incorporate the risks of both approaches rather than their benefits.
Thank you both for the points you've raised.
Very respectfully,
Larry
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PanelCrafters
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| 05/30/2008 6:44 PM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 05/30/2008 4:10 PM
I'd think (hope?) that your issue could be addressed by spec-ing QC checks in the factory; but that's going back at least a generation on how the process should work. And my first thought was that TPG's issue be can be addressed by ordering the stepped panel longer than required and fitting. But that seems to incorporate the risks of both approaches rather than their benefits.
Larry,
Any manufactured building product is subject to site conditions. A 'perfectly' manufactured product can still be problematic to install due to site conditions. Therefore, it's normal to expect some required adjustment at the site. I've seen installations w/o any adjustments, and some with quite a few. How many foundations have you seen that are 'perfect'(within 1/16 of an inch)?
The bottom line is: If you think that it'll all fit perfectly, you have never worked with prefabricated building products.
Adjustments are simply normal. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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The Panel Guy
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| 05/31/2008 12:44 AM |
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RTR, WES & PanelCrafters,
I love the in your face with every post PanelCrafters - "If you're not building with SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?" I say if somewhat differently to my clients. If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times............... With a product like SIPs available, why would you even consider a dinosaur building system like sticks.
QC has always been the biggest issue with any product that's factory built. Like Wes stated, you can have the best machine in the world, but if the operator doesn't know how to properly feed it the info, or the info fed into it is flawed, or the operator has a human glitch there will be problems. We've been fabricating panels, manually, in California since 1994. Our chop shop keeps the QC as the number one priority.
RTR's concern about using a chain saw to cut those expensive panels is interesting as most all CNC cutters are electric chain saws on steroids. Granted they are lazer guided and have it over they guy in the shop that may have had one too many drinks last night and cuts with a bit of a wobble.
The only place where I've seen CNC cutters out shine our fabrication, is with valley cuts. Otherwise, I'd put my John Henry against any power steel driver. I do have to say that I've had one of the few fabrication facilities located in California that has stayed open and has been in business for the past 13 years. We must be doing something right.
We do have a human factor pop up on occasion. As with any framing system, the builder does have to allow for what's known in the industry as "Pick up". We have what we call "A no whiner" contingency. It's one of the things we teach our builders that install out SIP framing packages. I have them build into their installation costs, an allowance to deal with that one or two parts that are not quite right. We seldom have anything that takes more that an hour or so to fix. As we all know, SIPs in themselves, don't require pickup work. No twisted SIPs to repair or replace. How did the lumber industry get all of us builders to buy into having to fix the materials that go bad at our own expense.
The Panel Guy |
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ReadyToRetire
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| 05/31/2008 6:57 AM |
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The Panel Guy,
Ignorance is bliss. I guess that I, again, proved the old saw (sorry, I couldn't help that) on assumptions. I'd assumed that in-plant, CNC cutting would be done with a rotary blade, not a chain.
Are valley cuts more critical than hip joints?
(Off topic tangent: I'm familiar with CNC routers, are CNC saws set up similarly? What would they use for the CNC bed with a chain cutter, or is the saw depth set to cut the lower skin with the bar's tip?)
Very respectfully,
Larry
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cmkavala
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Posts:862
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| 05/31/2008 7:55 AM |
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Posted By The Panel Guy
We do have a human factor pop up on occasion. Yes, it happens more than you would admit. For this reason we switched to field cutting. It takes just one crucial factory boo-boo and could take 2 weeks to get a replacement panel, the factory immediately assumes the installer did something wrong, in the mean time your crew is shut down.
The perception of the onlooking public is that something is wrong and the industry gets a black-eye.
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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ReadyToRetire
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| 05/31/2008 4:53 PM |
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Panel Crafter,
You've raised 3 related issues that have bothered me since I began looking at SIPs:
How flat/accurate does the foundation's upper surface have to be -- what's a desirable limit?
How do you achieve that accuracy?
How do you get the foundation contractor to do that?
Very respectfully,
Larry
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PanelCrafters
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| 05/31/2008 8:57 PM |
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Posted By ReadyToRetire on 05/31/2008 4:53 PM
Panel Crafter,
You've raised 3 related issues that have bothered me since I began looking at SIPs:
How flat/accurate does the foundation's upper surface have to be -- what's a desirable limit?
Larry,
Actually its one word and plural, PanelCrafters :). If you can get within an 1/8" you are doing great! But that is no easy task. There are work arounds for poor work(shims, sealant, foam).
How do you achieve that accuracy?
How do you get the foundation contractor to do that?
Like you said 'Foundation Contractor', and you just need to hire a quality craftsperson. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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The Panel Guy
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| 06/01/2008 2:02 PM |
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RTR,
What a funny queery. How flat/accurate does the foundation upper surface have to be ? It continually amazes me, that in this day and age with all the tools and technology available to us, that I can go on job after job and find a foundation that is more than 1/8 to 1/4 inch out of square. The majority of slabs we work behind are fairly flat. A small dip is neither here nor there as the moisture barrier below the panel will span it and the panel skins can span a short dip with no issues.
As PanelCrafters stated hire a professional "Foundation Contractor" and none of those concerns would be an issue.
TPG |
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Alton
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| 06/01/2008 2:48 PM |
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| In the Southeast where I live, most residential footers consist of reinforced concrete placed into a dirt trench. Either a nail in the dirt bank or a short piece of rebar driven into the ground in the middle of the footer marks the elevation of the footer. Needless to say, very few footers are level and flat. Foundation contractors expect the builder to use thick and thin mortar under concrete block to level out the top of the last course of block. Since the thickness of the mortar can vary under the concrete blocks, this system works well for a block foundation wall. However, when systems other than block are used for the foundation wall, we have all kinds of problems. Some companies that place concrete for foundation walls now insist upon placing their own footer. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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The Panel Guy
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Posts:57
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| 06/01/2008 2:56 PM |
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| Those foundation contractors need to go back to school. I wouldn't hire a foundation contractor who doesn't use some kind of screed material that isn't shot in with a transit or builder's level. You've painted a picture that foundation contractors in Alabama, are missing several teeth and support Hillary Clinton. Do they wear shoes ? |
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Jelly
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| 06/01/2008 5:04 PM |
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| The Panel Guy, so far your posts have contributed to the discussions, but this last one... well all I'll say is it's not necessary and it's only going to make some people angry. And that in turn is only going to get in the way of what most of us are trying to do here, and that is to build better, isn't it? |
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PanelCrafters
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| 06/01/2008 5:29 PM |
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Posted By The Panel Guy on 06/01/2008 2:56 PM
You've painted a picture that foundation contractors in Alabama, are missing several teeth and support Hillary Clinton. Do they wear shoes ?
Please tell us your thoughts! But along that line, I'm not impressed with our choices, I'll probably write-in someone...
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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ReadyToRetire
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| 06/01/2008 6:56 PM |
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No. Please DON'T tell us your thoughts on politics, on religion, . . . or, gee, on anything other than the forum's areas.
Larry
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The Panel Guy
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| 06/01/2008 8:06 PM |
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| A girl needs to have a little fun, sometimes. Advice taken, I'll keep to the subject. |
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Gsfrey
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| 06/09/2008 6:02 PM |
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I have been playing around with on-site modifications of panels sent to site w/out any pre-fab work at all. I honestly believe it is better to use a standard panel and do all the work on site.
RTR, imagine cutting plywood on site. We use a router or something to score the plywood and then cut. As you know if we don't we get a ugly blow out of product along whatever cutting line we use. If i am uncomfortable with a "Chain Cut" I have even gone so fare as to use a 1/4" roundover bit to clean up the mess and use calk in the seam to make sure my envelope is tight. Remember, the vast majority of panels will take no modifation at all. For windows I use a drill bit and cut out both side along the straight line I draw between drill bit opening. Blow out is covered by the window dressing of whatever sort you use.
I began as a finish carpenter and cabinet maker long before they had big sliding table saws with scarring blades. I suggest you do your work onsite. I believe you will save time overall and your carpentry skills will serve you well. As you know, never has anything been installed into a home that was built off-site without some scribing, sanding and cussing... |
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Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail |
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isogroup
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| 06/09/2008 8:23 PM |
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interesting article on factory built homes
http://markbrinkley.blogspot.com/2005/08/whats-belgium-got-to-teach-us-about.html |
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cmkavala
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| 06/10/2008 8:37 AM |
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Greg;
having been on both sides of the fence, I agree that site cut panels are less problems and offer field flexibilty |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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DIYSellFur
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| 06/10/2008 1:28 PM |
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I am new to greenbuildingtalk. I have a quote out for building a new home with icf. However looking at the way a sip house is built I think I would be better off doing the basement Icf and sipping the rest. Though I am not a contractor I have a fairly good skill set. Having said that is it something a diy guy can tackle, on site cutting that is. Also while on the sip topic would you guys recommend a Sip foundation. I am located in very northern ontario(Hearst) looking at 8in sips. Great forum by the way. Thanks.
Dave Hueston |
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