ICFconstruction
Registered Users
Posts:81
 |
| 04/22/2008 12:59 PM |
|
Two ICF houses I built for one general contractor have drywall cracking problems. Both homes have "truss lift" problems due to expansion and contraction of the wood roof trusses. But one of the houses has drywall cracking in vertical corners where interior wood framed walls meet exterior ICF walls. If I had to bet I would say it is the result of wood walls that "move" where the ICF walls do not.
It goes without saying the wood framing is an inferior method. And this problem is caused by the wood framing, it will be ICFs that will be blamed.
Has anyone run into this? Any repair methods? Any preventative methods? |
|
ICFconstruction.net |
|
|
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:818
|
| 04/22/2008 1:34 PM |
|
ICF;
The wood may be moving, as well as, shrinking, twisting and bowing. Yes the ICFs are moe of a fixed component |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
gregj
Registered Users
Posts:168
|
| 04/22/2008 2:38 PM |
|
Posted By ICFconstruction on 04/22/2008 12:59 PM
one of the houses has drywall cracking in vertical corners where interior wood framed walls meet exterior ICF walls.
How were the wood interior walls connected to the exterior ICF walls?
|
|
|
|
|
drogers
Registered Users
Posts:68
|
| 04/22/2008 2:41 PM |
|
| This trade group may be of some assistance. http://www.gypsum.org |
|
|
|
|
ICFconstruction
Registered Users
Posts:81
|
| 04/22/2008 2:44 PM |
|
Greg,
I imagine the last stud was screwed to the ICF ties, but I do not know. |
|
ICFconstruction.net |
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:818
|
| 04/22/2008 2:45 PM |
|
| Light gage steel framing would solve the issues in future projects |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:341
|
| 04/22/2008 7:56 PM |
|
In the future locate the interior framed walls and place anchor bolts in for the framer to help prevent this problem. Explain to the builder your reasoning for this. Some may say this is an ICF problem, the problem is we build with a superior product (Concrete) and these adjustments must be made for the best possible built home. Steel studs are the answer but some people view them as cheap especially in custom homes.
|
|
Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
|
|
ICFconstruction
Registered Users
Posts:81
|
| 04/22/2008 8:05 PM |
|
| Anchor bolts do not not sound like a good option. But is it believed that if they are better anchored to the concrete this would not happen? |
|
ICFconstruction.net |
|
|
James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
|
| 04/22/2008 9:45 PM |
|
"have "truss lift" problems due to expansion and contraction of the wood roof trusses"
this may be two different elements at play! First off, truss movement has been compensated for by the correct attachment of drywall at the perimeter thereby allowing the dw ceiling to stay intact at the ceiling joint while the truss seasonally moves. You do not say that you have ceiling/wall joints separating and/or cracking.
The wall cracks? Depending on how the trusses were placed and the dw, it is also possible the walls were attached "securely AND improperly" to the bottom truss chords, instead of using a truss/wall clip. Again, the movement of the ceiling, albeit the trusses, could be lifting or straining the whole wall, and you're only seeing it at a wall intersection joint which is cracking.
Although I agree wood may not be the best way, usually once it dries and stabilizes, the cracking, if present, can be repaired and solved. I imagine we all expect a crack or two, but if there are too many, look at your installation practices, and also type of tape and mud!
There are ways to retrofit repairs, but it's a mess to do! |
|
Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
|
|
ICFconstruction
Registered Users
Posts:81
|
| 04/23/2008 6:45 AM |
|
There is drywall cracking due to the truss lift, but that is a known issue and would happen with or without ICFs. Therefore the drywall cracking between the wood framed walls and ICF walls have me more concerned.
So there is a "clip" that should be used to attach wood framed interior walls to trusses? Is the purpose of these clips to prevent truss lift problems?
Other than anchor bolts how should wood stud walls be attached to ICF walls? |
|
ICFconstruction.net |
|
|
wes
Registered Users
Posts:376
|
| 04/23/2008 8:16 AM |
|
| Drywall clips have been use for over 30 years in tradiitonal frame construction. Interior and exterior frame walls will move at different rates, depending on the environment. So its natural to assume different rates of movement between different materials (ie: wood framing vs ICF). The idea behind clips is to allow this movement to occur without cracking. The key is make sure that the drywall is never attached to more than one plane of movement. Thats what the clips do, allow different elements to move independently. |
|
Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:818
|
| 04/23/2008 9:39 AM |
|
Posted By wes on 04/23/2008 8:16 AM
So its natural to assume different rates of movement between different materials (ie: wood framing vs ICF). This is usually a true statement, but please note that steel and concrete expand and contract at the same rate.
Thus in my opinion steel framing and ICFs make more sense
|
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
wes
Registered Users
Posts:376
|
| 04/23/2008 6:09 PM |
|
Chris,
Two walls, both traditional wood construction, standard and better SPF. One is an exterior wall with direct sun exposure, the other an interior wall in conditioned space. These two walls will move differently because of their environment. True, wood moves far more than either concrete or steel, but the environmental factors will cause these walls to react differently, also. Is it not better to make allowances for this possible movement than repair cracked drywall? |
|
Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
|
|
James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
|
| 04/23/2008 7:17 PM |
|
Yes, there are clips to use at the top of the wall which allows the truss to move up and down, while the wall stays plumb, assuming it was installed plumb.
For walls, tyhere are a myriad of ways to attach. Some glue to the foam, some use 2x4 blocking in the wall, some use a metal strap screwed to the ICF straps within the wall which fall on each side of the wall position, again assuming the wall misses the in-wall strap or stud. Anchor bolts have been used, I think they're overkill...and you could use specialty clips like from ICFConnect.
So there are ways to attach, however, I'm guessing the problem is with the truss lift and the dw on the ceiling at the ceiling/wall intersection was screwed or nailed all the way to the wall, instead of leaving the last 12-16 inches float. If the ceiling floats it probably would not lift the wall, therefore no cracks, except for some extreme movement, typically in the first year. |
|
Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:818
|
| 04/23/2008 9:57 PM |
|
Wes;
the point I was trying to make was: if steel framing was used we wouldn't have a discussion, as wood is too sensitive to environmental changes.
Steel and concrete are not affected.
James;
some codes restrict "floating" the ceiling |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
|
| 04/23/2008 10:30 PM |
|
Chris
I'm not aware of that restriction, so you have given me something to do tomorrow and try to find it in the IRC or IBC.
If you do know the section, sure would help! |
|
Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
|
|
Buntly
Registered Users
Posts:95
|
|
cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:818
|
| 04/24/2008 4:09 PM |
|
Jim;
I couldn't find anything in the IRC, but a friend of mine (3 largest drywall contr. in Florida) says 6" is the max. float.
USG handbook says 7" |
|
Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
|
|
medelpadconst
Registered Users
Posts:3
|
| 05/02/2008 9:24 AM |
|
| We use three 7" x 3/8 Redheads to attach each beginning wall stud to our ICF walls and have never had a crack problem between the two walls. |
|
|
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:272
|
| 05/02/2008 2:50 PM |
|
Skimming this post, I didn't see any info on the floor system?
If wood, is there deflection/movement visible. We've got an ICF installer in town attaches 2 by 6 rim boards cantilevered to the face of foam with a single 1/2 j-bolt 6ft. on center, I can see those floor systems moving...
If its a concrete slab floor, is it on topsoil (no compressive strength) or expansive soils (slab will rise and fall with moisture changes) We saw a lot of that crazy stuff with the tract home builders on the bentonite hills on the Front Range.....
So what I'm asking, possibly is the "truss lift" actually a "floor lift" problem. And If (I also didn't see what ceiling insulation was used) there is spray foam to the underside of the deck sheathing, truss lift should be negated?
Kevin |
|
|
|
|