Chris Fitzgerald
Registered Users
Posts:6
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| 06/07/2008 12:26 AM |
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I"m new to the ICF world, and I like what I'm seeing.
Now I'm wondering if I can save on costs by stuccoing directly over the
exterior for a finished product, and if so can I plaster over the interior also?
This would cut costs as it would eliminate the cost of sheetrock for exterior
facing walls.
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Peter Jackson
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 06/07/2008 12:30 AM |
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I just got a Permacrete stucco quote that came out to $5.47/sq.ft., so I think the answer to your question is "yes."
yours/
peter. |
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Chris Fitzgerald
Registered Users
Posts:6
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| 06/07/2008 10:20 AM |
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What about the interior, is plaster or drywall mud ie easy sand fast setting mud compatible with ICF?
Thanks Chris |
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bobgieser
Registered Users
Posts:33
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| 06/08/2008 9:28 AM |
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I don't know if plaster or mud is compatible but one of the major EIFS manufacturers is coming out real soon with a spray on/trowel on synthetic stucco applied right to EPS.
Email me off line for detaile
icfbob@consultant.com |
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Bob Gieser
Sales and Technical Support
Holdfast Technologies
Master Distributor for Nudura ICFs
(916) 214-4398-cell |
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Jeff in Omaha
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 06/09/2008 9:37 AM |
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Are you building commercial or residential? The main reason I ask is that the Fire Codes are different for each. In my area (Nebraska), you can apply stucco directly to the ICF on the exterior of a residential building, but not a commercial building because of the Fire Code. The reason is mainly a testing issue. As ICF becomes more mainstream, it will probably become acceptable. On the interior, both commercial and residential codes require that the foam of the ICF be covered (drywall, FRP panel, etc, whatever meets the required fire rating for your area). As far as the exterior, there are several options. Depending on the type of foam in the ICF, you should be able to stucco right to the ICF. Many ICF's are made with EPS foam (expanded polystyrene). EPS is the same foam used in many EIFS systems, so the application is the same. Some manufacturers you might try are Finestone (or any BASF wall systems stucco/EIFS, there are several BASF owns), Sto, and Dryvit, I know all of them are aware of ICF and have details/systems to apply to ICF. Sounds like Permacrete has a system as well. In theory, you could use the same on the interior, but would probably be too expensive. As for using drywall mud, I don't think it would work. Besides the Fire Code issue, the foam doesn't absorb moisture, so I don't think the mud would stick well.
Hope this helps.
Jeff |
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Chris Fitzgerald
Registered Users
Posts:6
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| 06/09/2008 10:10 PM |
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Thank you Jeff,
The area that I plan on building does not have that strict building codes, and it is a residence.
My main reason for the question that I imposed was that if I can cut out my labor and material cost of hanging and finishing sheet rock and just finishing over the ICF the costs would be very competitive with SIP.
I have use drywall mud in the past to finish over cement columns on commercial buildings.
I didn't think the drywall mud would be compatible over foam, but it would be interesting to see if I could do a green cement scratch coat and then smooth it out with drywall or plaster. I could go complete stucco but I think the costs would be on the high side, and I don't think I would get the interior finish that I'm looking for.
But I do thank you for the information he gave me and if there is anybody else that has any knowledge to this aspect I would greatly appreciate it.
thank you, Chris
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Thomas Van Denend
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 06/12/2008 4:57 PM |
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You need to sheetrock over the inside surface of a foam ICF for fire code. NOt sure about stucco directly applied to the outside. It would be potentially dent-able (like the old EIFS system). There are other ICF products that you can stucco and plaster directly to. One is called Faswall.
Good luck.
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
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| 06/12/2008 8:16 PM |
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Chris,
Glass-fiber, reinforced concrete 1/4" thick can be blown or troweled on to the ICF. It is much stronger than sheetrock and is fire-resistant. See http://www.strataus.com
Alton |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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Ian S. Giesler
Registered Users
Posts:9
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| 06/14/2008 9:54 PM |
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| Whether you have codes or not should not be the basis for whether or not you do the right thing....Fire in an ICF home is deadly.....Use a product on the interior that will at least conform to the minimum 15 minute barrier....or use a product such as Gigacrete on the interior foam. You may also want to investigate grailcoat for the exterior. Grailcoat will provide a waterproof stucco, something that few other products can claim. |
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mckinlay
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 06/17/2008 10:53 PM |
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| @ alton
The provided link seems to be bad, I get a networking company rather than a building solutions company.
Cheers |
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
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| 06/17/2008 11:16 PM |
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mckinlay,
Thank you. My error. I fixed the error. Please try the link again. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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Jelly
Registered Users
Posts:274
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| 06/18/2008 2:59 AM |
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Posted By Alton on 06/12/2008 8:16 PM Chris,
Glass-fiber, reinforced concrete 1/4" thick can be blown or troweled on to the ICF. It is much stronger than sheetrock and is fire-resistant. See http://www.strataus.com
Alton
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mckinlay
Registered Users
Posts:16
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| 06/18/2008 1:50 PM |
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Posted By Jelly on 06/18/2008 2:59 AM Posted By Alton on 06/12/2008 8:16 PM Chris,
Glass-fiber, reinforced concrete 1/4" thick can be blown or troweled on to the ICF. It is much stronger than sheetrock and is fire-resistant. See http://www.strataus.com
Alton [/quote]Is the SABS coating essentially a surface bonding cement?
What sort of pricing are we talking about, after all the thread is pursuing a lower cost/ better solution to dry-walling
Cheers |
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
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| 06/18/2008 8:09 PM |
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Jelly & Mckinlay
For more info on SABS, search for threads on this forum. Also see www.giblinconstruction.com
Interior walls do not require sheetrock.
Here are my notes from the International Builders Show in Orlando:
A new wall system by called Saebi Alternative Building SystemJ (SABSJ) International Group Inc. Glendale, Arizona, 602-547-8008 www.strataus.com . President: Nasser Saebi, P.E., Has already done four homes with this new system. Said he received ESR 1638 number on 2-15-08 from the International Codes. This system consists of 1.5 pound density expanded polystyrene coated with glass fiber reinforced concrete on both sides and at least the top. Can be used for basement walls, main walls and roofs. Sprayed on GFRC about 1/4" thick bonds everything together. No rebar that I could see. Basement walls or foundation walls rest on a concrete footer. The wall is then bonded with the footer with GFRC about 3/4" thick at the radius. Then concrete slab is placed on each side of wall to lock it in to place. The basement uses foam that is 12" thick. The walls are probably thinner since I saw smaller examples in booth. He said the installed cost of an 8" thick wall or roof panel was $6.50 per SF. Very reasonable price compared to some ICF=s going at $17 SF. He gave me a sample. This company sells only the glass fiber and the mix. The foam, sand and cement is bought locally. Have to follow the methods and materials in the ESR 1638 listing or the engineering drawing. Engineering fees if needed cost $1.50 per SF.
SABSJ is a multi‑patented, composite building system that utilizes Expanded Polystyrene (EPS) as the core material for all structural members B walls, roof, floor B that is sprayed with a composite coating made up of a precise blend of sand, cement, glass fiber and other additives that, together, create a building shell that meets or exceeds all testing protocols and load requirements of the ICC‑ES.
Intrinsically linked to the installation and application of the SABSJ building method is Strata=s patented analysis program that accurately predicts the performance capability of a building shell utilizing any architectural design under any set of climatic conditions. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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Chris Fitzgerald
Registered Users
Posts:6
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| 06/18/2008 9:07 PM |
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Wow, thanks Alton.
This product looks exactly like what I am looking for, I wanted something airtight, very well insulated, and that could be finished directly over reducing material cost. I originally was going to use straw bales to finish over, and then I ran into ICF. But I had my reservations about cement in between two layers of foam, mostly whether it would insulate sufficient enough in cold climate. But if I can go with 12 inches of foam and a quarter inch of fiberglass and for cement on the outside and the inside this will give me the structure that I need and definitely the insulation that I am looking for.
From what I can see in the link that you presented the cost is very comparable to framed houses. Where I have finishing capabilities I can reduce that cost drastically by finishing the outside and the inside of my home.
I get the feeling that this type of building system is going to catch on in a big way the same as SIF's, and ICF's. Moisture will no longer be a factor as there is nothing that can rot in this type of building unlike SIF's.
And I am very excited that I can also use this in the floor system also with minimum of cement.
Thanks again, Alton it is this kind of information that makes this site great! |
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Farmboy
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 06/19/2008 12:52 AM |
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| Interesting technology, but ...how do you install electrical and plumbing? Does inserting conduit affect the structural integrity of the wall/ceiling? I wouldn't imagine the EPS being expected to carry any of the load. I see the insulation potential, but is this a technology for all climates? Most concrete ends up with cracks, so can you be sure this material will not crack and lead to structural issues? Also 1/4" isn't very thick?? Just a few questions I'd like answers to if I was considering SABSJ. Dave |
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Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
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| 06/19/2008 8:46 AM |
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Chris,
I am a designer and building consultant. I do not sell any product. In many cases, I donate my time to interesting projects.
I picked up a sample of the SABS interior wall at the trade show. It is 3 3/4" thick. It consists of expanded polystyrene covered with a composite coating. I do not believe there is anything magical about this overall thickness for a non-load bearing interior wall. In fact, I would prefer to order thicker polystyrene so that with the coating the overall thickness would be exactly 4" thick. This would lend itself to easier layouts and also have more depth for wiring.
Look at the Strata video at the bottom of the News Coverage column on the right hand side of the screen. Turn on your sound.
By the way, the thin composite coating has terrific screw holding ability. |
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Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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Chris Fitzgerald
Registered Users
Posts:6
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| 06/19/2008 11:29 AM |
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Thanks, Alton.
Yes I saw the video, this new method is very exciting!
My rough thought-out plan for my home is a timber frame house, (the timber frame is mostly for aesthetic value) and I think now I'll use SABS for the exterior.
I was going to go with traditional framing on the interior and sheet rock, and SIP's for the roof.
But with the timber frame project there is plenty of support, so I would imagine I could go SABS for the roof also. I didn't think I could use that because I wanted to go with the metal roof and I did not think there was a means to fasten it, but if it has good screw holding capabilities then, my fears are put to rest. I want to go with the metal roof because I am very interested as funds become available at a later date I can add thin-film solar panels to the metal roof.
I have been out of the construction trade for about 12 years now, and boy have I fallen behind!
I also plan on adding geothermal, I would love to see what this type of house could do for cost-effectiveness, and reducing the impact to the environment.
To Farmboy, you really should go to the website that Alton posted, you will find that the cement is fiberglass reinforced, this technology has been out for quite some time, they have used that in the open spaced cinderblocks as a way of eliminating mortar and giving its structural integrity. Also I have several friends who build entertainment parks, they use fiberglass cement to build artificial mountains, castles, and statues. It is extremely durable and does not crack. Which was your concern. This company has also done test on the structural integrity and yes it can be made to be weight-bearing.
I really recommend you looking up the site, if nothing else just to satisfy your curiosity.
Thanks all, Chris. |
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Farmboy
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 06/19/2008 12:48 PM |
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| Chris, I had scanned the website, perhaps not enough to see how they handle utilities. I didn't doubt the structural capability of the technology just how durable and crack resistant it is. The fact it's used in theme parks, etc, certainly reinforces (no pun intended) the idea of residential application. So this is not new technology, just a new application. Thanks for the info. Dave |
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Chris Fitzgerald
Registered Users
Posts:6
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| 06/19/2008 9:05 PM |
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Hey Farmboy,
Yes you are right it does not go into a lot of detail about electrical and plumbing, and I am by no means an expert.
But if it was me, I would make cutouts along the joint for light switches and junction boxes, from the videos he shows sections of foam being put together so I imagine you could cut a horizontal and then make a channel to run electrical or plumbing in. I'm sure there is someone out there who could give us both a lot better explanation on the subject. I would love to hear any information as someone might have a on how to run plumbing and electrical wiring or conduit through SABS. Also I wonder how someone could run radiant heat in the floor system, may be run stripper boards between the tubing, or just run enough cement to cover the tubing. If anybody has any information I would love to learn more.
Thanks, Chris. |
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