chuck07 Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:33
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| 06/11/2008 11:39 PM |
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I've been reading up on SIPS the last couple of years, particularly metal ones since I will be building in Florida. I was reading the Builder's Guide to SIPS by Joseph Lstiburek (Building Science Corp) and read a section about metal sips that causes me concern.
Last Paragraph, Page 111 states: "What about all these sheet metal faced SIPS? Well, they are always somewhat of a risk as they rely on "perfect" joints and no penetrations since they can never "dry" outwards or inwards. They are pretty good for freezers if you don't perforate them with holes - so they would be a dumb idea as an exterior wall system with cladding attached with screws, but would be a pretty good idea if they were painted or had a direct applied stucco."
It appears even stucco would be applied to lathe that is screwed into the panels so I don't know how you can get away from having holes in the panels? I would appreciate any comments or insight on this.
Thanks.
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cmkavala Registered Users
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 Posts:862

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| 06/12/2008 7:58 AM |
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Posted By chuck07 on 06/11/2008 11:39 PM I've been reading up on SIPS the last couple of years, particularly metal ones since I will be building in Florida. I was reading the Builder's Guide to SIPS by Joseph Lstiburek (Building Science Corp) and read a section about metal sips that causes me concern.
Chuck;
it wasn't Joe's opinion when I spoke to him in person?
Is this to say that other sips rely on imperfect joints?
I believe he is speaking of polyurethane cores not being able to dry out, as they are injected in liquid form and he makes a good point.
But tell me why a hole in a metal SIP is of greater concern than an OSB or cement fiber?
you cannot assemble any sip structure without making penetration holes
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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chuck07 Registered Users
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 Posts:33
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| 06/12/2008 1:15 PM |
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| The context of the comment was giving assemblies the chance to dry out. Wood and OSB being more permeable than the EPS core allows the core to dry out if the core receives moisture. Metal being less permeable than the core would trap any moisture. Even without holes does the metal cladding sweat in the a.m. as it is warmed up by the sun? If it sweats to the interior how does the moisture escape? Are there any special measures/details done with metal sips to address this? |
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cmkavala Registered Users
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 Posts:862

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| 06/12/2008 1:36 PM |
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Chuck07;
There is no moisture to trap, steel sips do not sweat on the interior, you will see dew on the exterior in the AM, just like you see on your car. Metal is not permeable and the reason why no vapor barrier is required |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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chuck07 Registered Users
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 Posts:33
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| 06/13/2008 9:18 AM |
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I e-mailed Building Science because I wanted to have a clearer idea of what was meant in the book. This is the response I received from Joe:
"The two metal skins form perfect vapor barriers - one on each side. In other words we have a double vapor barrier assembly. Double vapor barriers are never a good idea because if moisture gets into an assembly with a double vapor barrier it rarely is able to get out. Freezer panels work pretty well because the metal skins have no holes in them - no screw holes for example. And the joints between panels are airtight because of some pretty sophisticated gaskets. They work because they are perfectly airtight and vapor tight. They would make poor exterior wall assemblies because you could not attach any cladding to them. The cladding attachment would require screws and screws are holes, etc."
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cmkavala Registered Users
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 Posts:862

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| 06/13/2008 3:54 PM |
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chuck07;
First I want to say that I have the utmost respect for Joe as he is genius at mechanical engineering.
However, attached is a cooler/freezer corner connection detail showing screws inside and out, the base, top cap lid and interior clip details also also show screw penetrations for assembly, how else is it held together! And while steel panels are tight they are not a bio-sphere, they still have windows, doors, exhaust vents, air leakage and once in a while you need to open the door to get in and out. so now that I have dispelled the theory that there are no holes in freezer panels.
Please see wire lath attached to steel panels at http://southernsips.com/monroebusiness.html
or vinyl siding at http://southernsips.com/caldwell.html
or fiber cement siding at http://southernsips.com/groover.html
all of which are attached with screws and all systems are approved to be installed to a steel substrate
So not only can claddings be attached, they are successfuly done.
I can only hang my hat on our success in doing so over the last 17 years and not EVER having a call back for , failures in cladings or for moisture problems.
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Attachment: File0200.PDF
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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cmkavala Registered Users
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 Posts:862

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| 06/15/2008 12:56 PM |
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chuck07;
typical interior humidity readings ( summer) inside my own steel SIP home are 45 to 55%, during winter months as low as 30%.
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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chuck07 Registered Users
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 Posts:33
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| 06/16/2008 1:34 PM |
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Chris,
Thanks for your responses. The comment in the book really caught my attention but the more I think about it I cannot come up with a better alternative than metal sips in Florida (ICF for that matter has two more impermeable surfaces-foam surrounding a more permeable material -concrete). -As long as leakage (presumably very minor) doesn't compromise the integrity of the metal (rust) or cause delamination from the foam core.
Have you seen/heard of either of these taking place with metal SIPS? I have decided OSB skins are too risky in my opinion in Florida. I guess fiber rock would be okay but appears to be harder to obtain, has handling issues (easy to break) and are more labor/time intensive if doing two stories (one story at a time). You seem to have the most experience on this site in regard to metal SIPS. I would be curious to know if you have any lessons learned on things to avoid with metal SIPS.
Thanks again. |
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chuck07 Registered Users
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 Posts:33
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| 06/16/2008 1:36 PM |
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Chris,
What temperature do you typically keep summer/winter? Do you have a ERV and/or dehumidifier as part of your system? |
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cmkavala Registered Users
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 Posts:862

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| 06/16/2008 2:23 PM |
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chuck07;
Summer AC temp 72
winter heat temp 70
I did install an ERV 2 years after we moved in, not because of moisture but because of our wood burning fireplace (draft) , even though it had an outside air kit, it still did not have enough supply air. I usually only run ERV in winter months when humidity is lower and run on a percentage timer 5% of time. What we have been doing lately is installing a 4" OS air duct (with damper) into return air plenum so fresh air comes in everytime the HVAC system comes on and gets conditioned thru the unit itself. This also provides positve presure in the home. Damper is usually almost closed letting in minimal OS air.
Metal SIPs lessons learned:
wear gloves when handling - cut edges are sharp wear sunglasses so you won't go snow-blind
Tip:
glass suction cups are great for making an instant handle when setting walls |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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Alton Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:338
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| 06/16/2008 5:23 PM |
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Chuck07,
Aluminum or galvanized (G-90) steel skins are usually recommended for coastal use because of the salty air. G-60 can be used inland.
Alton |
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Alton C. Keown Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant Auburn, Alabama 334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
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cmkavala Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:862

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| 06/16/2008 5:33 PM |
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Alton;
our old standard was G-90 now we use galvalume |
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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Donaldson Registered Users
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 Posts:92
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| 06/16/2008 10:32 PM |
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Chuck07,
Hi, I agree that Chris K has the knowledge for steel SIPs. He helped me build my home in Florida. I don't keep my home like a freezer box that Chirs keeps his, 72 year round. I keep mine at 78 and my humidity fluctuates between 48 and 52 maintaining an average of 51. This is important in Florida as mold needs a humidity rating between 64% to 98% humidity to produce mold. I have not hooked up my EVR because I have four kids constantly going in and out and then in the late fall to winter to early spring we open the windows.
I have used screws to attach everything to the walls ie trim etc. If you use the proper screw it is not making a hole it is filling a hole with a screw. I am looking at building a new home as I am possibly moving. I wouldn't think of building in Florida with anything else but steel sips. You won't be disappointed. |
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GeorgiaTom Registered Users
 Basic Member
 Posts:132
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| 06/17/2008 7:03 AM |
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Donaldson;
what are your utility bills, if you can share? |
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Green1 Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:11
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| 06/17/2008 8:21 AM |
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| Steel SIPS are the only material to use in Florida for energy savings and safety,After building all over Florida have not found a better material,But total systems have to be designed to go with these strutucres,smaller AC etc.With the addition of solar power these can become zero energy homes and low maintance. I have yet to have a disappointed customer........Ralph Locke,Deland,FL......3526691755...www.Flagreenbuilder.com |
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Donaldson Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:92
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| 06/17/2008 2:54 PM |
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GeorgiaTom,
My year round average utility bill for total electric, with tankless electric water heaters is 5 cents per sq. ft. On my 3350 sq ft home two story with 14 ft open gable ceiling upstairs and 10 ft ceilings down stairs spring and fall average is 130 winter 145 to 160 and June and July 200 to 230 make for a yearly average of $170 per month |
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Donaldson Registered Users
 New Member
 Posts:92
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| 06/17/2008 3:00 PM |
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GeorgiaTom and Green1,
According to Florida Power and Light I could shave off another $40 to $50 per month if I would get up on the roof and install the solar hot water system that I designed. I might just install it on my new home. |
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cmkavala Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:862

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| 06/18/2008 5:06 PM |
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chuck07;
you need to re-read that article ,
are you aware that OSB SIPs are available with a sheet metal face? used for coolers/freezers
I, believe that that is what they are talking about, it would have the same affect as putting a layer of ployethelene over the interior and trap moisture in the OSB.
there is no moisture to trap with a steel sip core as the skin and core are both impermeable
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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panelwright Registered Users
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 Posts:19
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| 06/18/2008 10:21 PM |
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Chris, I feel your pain as you attempt to discredit the comments made by the foremost expert in the world on Building Science. In fact, it is you that should reread the book. If you do, what should be plainly obvious is that Joe is describing the charateristics of an assembly that leads to drying. If you take the cross-section of any assembly, the outside material should have a perm rating no greater then the layers closer to the centerline. This design allows moisture that gets in to the assembly a way to dry to the outside (either the interior or the exterior) Any builder worth his boots knows or should know that if water gets in, you have to give it a way to get out. I personally like to remind people at this point that it(water) always gets in! Therefore, by Joe's logical and Molson-clouded point of view, a metal skinned panel has the higest perm rated material at the edge and not at the centerline. It's theoretically backwards. Hence his comment that you need perfect joints to prevent water from entering the joint. Furthermore, your comment about the core being impermeable is absolutly incorrect. All types of foam have a perm rating which means all types of foam will allow water to penetrate and hangout until given a way to dry out. I think you should reallocate some of your S&M budget back over to the R&D column.
Before you fire back, I think you should know I enjoy the advantages that a metal skinned SIP provides. I enjoy installing them and I think they have their place in our industry. I also think the pros and cons need to be presented responsibly.
Al Cobb
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cmkavala Registered Users
 Advanced Member
 Posts:862

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| 06/19/2008 7:45 AM |
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Posted By panelwright on 06/18/2008 10:21 PM Furthermore, your comment about the core being impermeable is absolutly incorrect.
Al Cobb
Al;
that comment was not mine, it was from Joe himself!
please read for yourself Page 108 ..."SIP Wall Properties" , first paragraph, 3 rd. sentence.
Please explain how you think water gets trapped in a steel SIP, if the core will not absorb and the steel won't absorb.
How is it in there?
Does common sense exist anymore?
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Chris Kavala chris@southernsips.com 1-877-321-SIPS |
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