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Chicano
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Posts:17
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| 08/20/2008 4:52 PM |
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Ok, so I found this mini-article in the 21 Aug 2008, Korea edition of "Stars and Stripes" P16. "Stars and Stripes" is a pseudo-military endorsed paper usually found on bases overseas, and provided to allow the troops some American news. I quote from the article:
"Gen Allen--Virginia regulators are revisiting the state's regulations for disposal of fly ash produced by coal-fired power plants. An advisory panel for the Virginia Department of Environmental Quality plns to discuss possible reviesions of solid waste regulations at a meeting in Glen Allen. Fly ash is a powdery residue that can contain arsenic, mercury, lead or other heavy metals. The U.S. EPA has determined that fly ash is not hazardous waste. But it is subject to regulation as an industrial waste."
Well, any greeners have any opinions? Sounds like many may be lacing their green ICF homes with mercury, arsenic or heavy metals. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose. (wood vs ICF)
Jonathan |
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icfcontractor
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Posts:237
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| 08/20/2008 10:22 PM |
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Chicano,
That is interesting but in the walls you would have to have direct contact or access to the concrete and you would have to injest enough orally, transpulmonally, or transdermally to affect you. Plus it is a heavy metal and you would have to have a significant exposure before any ill effects would occur. Lead based paint is safe as long as you don't eat it. Arsenic is a great wood preservative as long as you wash your hands after exposure and you don't make a habit of knawing on your deck or play gound equipment. Mercury is in all of the fish we eat to some degree and it is in most thermometers, older thermostats, and mny other things.
Then if that is considered a problem watch out because there is silica in the cement and silica is know to cause silicosis which is similar to asbestosis then we may all die of lung cancer.
In order for any of these to be a problem you would have you need to be exposed to tons of concrete dust and that just is not common in a finished home. I think you are possibly inciting a problem were there really isn't one. It is not like it is emitting gaseous vapors of benzene, a known carcinogen, that we are exposed to ever time we fill up with our $4 per gallon gas or the organophosphates (Nerve Agents) that we are exposed to everytime we eat a fruit or vegitable that isn't grown "organically".
Just my 2 cents
ICF Contractor |
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Chicano
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Posts:17
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| 08/20/2008 10:56 PM |
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No really....I'm pretty sure we are all gonna die!!!
Just kidding. Actually, I agree that it is probably harmless. In fact, until about 3 days ago when I found these forums and started to read about concrete additives, (previously read other sites and forums) I didn't even know what fly ash was. Then, today (Korea time) I found the article and wanted to see what other people think. I guess I can expand on the question and ask, "Are there any additives that I should stay away from for health reasons?" Hopefully that is not a charged question. After all my home in Mexico still has asbestos in alot of it and I am fine! For now! I sure can't wait to get back home to start building. I bought my plot of land near Camp Lejeune, NC just before deploying over here. It will be a year or so before I get back, so I am exited to continue seeing this market evolve and improve at such a break-neck pace. (That's a good thing.)
Semper Fi and Semper ICF!
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PatrickT
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Posts:142
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| 08/21/2008 7:12 AM |
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Chicano,
I have seen in another post of yours, you have family in Mexico. I have traveled to central Mex, Irapuato, Gto, many times. The construction methods and style is what inspired me to build ICF. We are building a hacienda style with an open area that the rooms over look.
Attached is a photo of the style we are using
Keep up the research and welcome a board
Patrick T
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Chicano
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Posts:17
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| 08/21/2008 5:29 PM |
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Patrick,
My folks are both from Cal, but work in Mex so I am American, but I was born in Tuxtla Gutierrez, Chiapas. (Capital of the Southern most state in Mexico) Grew up there too and when I was 17 I went to P'Cola, Fl for college. I don't remember if it was that year or the next, but I was in my first hurricane during college there. I was amazed at the devastation, and even more dumbfounded to see a year later people rebuilding on the beach using wood! ...and then whining when their houses blew down about 2 years later during our next hurricane.(2-3 years...something like that) Anyway, they should have learned their lesson from Andrew in 92. Personally, I have no sympathy for that kind of stupidity...although in all fairness I know it is probably just ignorance. Anyway, I had never heard of ICFs before until about a year ago. I have always seen concrete construction, but it usually involved forms made of wood that were taken away after the pour. (Actually, usually block was used, but the floors and roofs and decor was concrete.) Anyway, I love the style you have chosen. I have looked at designs very similar, but I thought it might be too radical for the US and since now I am in the Marine Corps, I have to keep resale as a very real possibility in case I am moved after the build. I don't want to wait 'till retirement to start. ha! Particularly fascinating is the huge "skylight" roof built over the court yard. Typically, it would be an open courtyard, but this is a very nice touch. I think I'll plagiarize from your idea if you don't mind. How expensive or difficult is it make all those archs? I have thought about going to Mex and finding a crew there to bring back just for the build...legally of course. (Not trying to screw American labor, but very few people around Jacksonville, NC seem to be able to do this stuff, so those that can charge a premium.) |
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gregj
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Posts:173
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| 08/21/2008 6:33 PM |
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Chicano, I think that center courtyard look is cool and would resell well. The trick would be to get the Marines to up your pay so you can build one that big. Of course if you went to college already you must be one of those rich Officers.
As far as safety, the Fluorescent bulbs are loaded with mercury, many granite countertops and floors give off radiation, radioactive Radon seeps out of the ground into many of the homes in the US and every time you fly you get radiated. But I suspect that none of those things present a significant risk to you in comparison to your job. Thank you for your service.
Did you ever imagine growing up that you'd live in Korea. Make sure you take advantage of your travels to meet the locals and see the sights. My Dad retired from the Air Force and I think he really enjoyed his time off base in other countries. |
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Chicano
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Posts:17
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| 08/21/2008 7:56 PM |
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Actually, I am in Korea on a "business trip". There is a lot of down time, so I have really learned alot about ICF construction during this time...on the Gov's dime! Ha! I am actually stationed at Yokota AirBase just outside of Tokyo. Your father retired from the AF, so was he/were you ever at YAB? Btw, I have been fascinated by seeing the construction methods here in Tokyo and in its suburbs. I love the Japanese roofs; you know, the typical "Japanese" tyle looking roof where the corners point slightly up. The modern roof "tiles" are actually stamped sheet metal painted and textured to replicate the older tyle. They are installed similarly to nailing in regular shingles. There are several interesting stores here. One is called "Joyful Honda" (strange at first, but you get used to the names) and it is like Home-Depot/Walmart combined...only not quite as good as either. However, they have many gadgets and construction material that is very interesting. I spend hours just browsing. Also, everything used to build here is minature. Mini-cranes, mini-bulldozers w/ backhoes, mini-dump trucks. Looks like something out of a parade, yet they do amazingly fast and efficient construction work here. However, one thing the Japanese have NO concept of is proper insulation. They build stickbuit frames like in the US for many residential houses, but barely put any insulation in them. They also still use single pane glass for many windows. They don't regularly install central air/heat, so people have window units and kerosene heaters. I'm talking about brand new, track homes that sell for 200k plus! (Definately talking suburbs now as Tokyo proper is way more expensive.) Very unusual. Also, they use incinerators to burn their trash. My job often times has me flying in a helicopter over Tokyo and there are dozens of 50-70ft chimneys with smoke coming out of them burning their trash. There is also one right next to the base here and my car is covered every week in a thin layer of black soot. Really too bad, because this country has many beautiful things to offer. No wonder they didn't want to sign the Kyoto Accords. Anyway, Seoul, Korea is similar to Tokyo only it has wider streets, and no, I never imagined I'd be where I am.
As far as your "rich officer" comment: My father does missionary work and we lived in a rustic bare concrete 1 floor house with 1 bedroom for several years. (The other bedrooms would be added to the 2nd story a couple of years later.) We had a cistern 'cause city water was on about 3 days a week, etc. etc. Funny thing is, I never knew I was "underprivildged" LOL or missing out on anything. Worked my way through college too....fortunately state tuition at UWF in P'Cola is not too much. Wow, I am sure that was way too much sob story for all of you, but I really wanted to say HUGE THANKS for the pros and everyone else here willing to share your experience and expertise.
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gregj
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Posts:173
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| 08/22/2008 12:02 PM |
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| Dad was stationed at an AFB just outside of Tokyo from around 1957 to 1960. I was born in 1956 so I unfortunately remember almost nothing of Japan. My brother did get to climb Mt Fuji with Dad. I don't recall the name of the AFB but I know there had been a Japanese officer school there before the war. When we were there the plumbing in the local town consisted primarily of an irrigation ditch along the road. Things have improved a lot since then. I guess trash is incinerated because there is no room for landfills. |
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cmkavala
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Posts:862
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| 08/22/2008 4:08 PM |
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Many concrete companies use flyash in the mix to replace part of the portland cement. You can request a non-fly ash mix, but could expect to pay more.
I wouldn't be too concerned about the low levels of mercury and arsenic.
You would probably be in more danger from the many picnic tables and playground equipment that had been built with arsenic in the PT lumber |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Bruce Frey
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Posts:91
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| 08/22/2008 5:27 PM |
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Posted By Chicano on 08/20/2008 4:52 PM
"Gen Allen--Virginia regulators are revisiting the state's regulations for disposal of fly ash produced by coal-fired power plants. An advisory panel for the Virginia Department of Environmental Quality plns to discuss possible reviesions of solid waste regulations at a meeting in Glen Allen. Fly ash is a powdery residue that can contain arsenic, mercury, lead or other heavy metals. The U.S. EPA has determined that fly ash is not hazardous waste. But it is subject to regulation as an industrial waste."
Well, any greeners have any opinions? Sounds like many may be lacing their green ICF homes with mercury, arsenic or heavy metals. Damned if you do, damned if you don't I suppose. (wood vs ICF)
Jonathan
Flyash will help get you LEED points for recycled content.
Bruce
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Chris Johnson
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Posts:359
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| 08/22/2008 6:42 PM |
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Anyone ever been to the state of California?
Everything out here is 'Known to the State of California to cause cancer'
Fly Ash and Slag are two of the greatest additives for concrete, but don't say that too loud, one concrete company is now charging $ 1.00 per % of fly ash, when asked why...because they can and it is considered a 'Green Building Product'. Unbelievable. |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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Chicano
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Posts:17
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| 08/24/2008 9:58 PM |
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cmkavala...you said one could expect to pay MORE for a NON-Fly Ash mix....and Chris Johnson said that cement companies charge $1 per % of fly ash just because they can. So, is it cheaper to get a non-fly ash mix or not? I guess I should call some companies...kind of difficult from Japan, but maybe that's what I'll do. Hmmm, think I shift to reading some of the "concrete mix" forums. At least it sounds like no one is particularly concerned about any of the concrete addititives. I am a little surprised though since I figured concrete underground could leech such contaminents into the soil. Guess not.
Bruce,
Thanks for the tip on LEED points. I didn't even know what that was till I googled it. Are there any tangible benefits? I don't mean money per se, but is there any benefit other than bragging rights? |
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Bruce Frey
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| 08/25/2008 3:46 AM |
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Fly ash is a very broad term. There are at least two different types used in concrete mixes and not all fly ash is suitable for concrete.
Fly ash has been an ingredient in many concrete mixes my projects have used for the past 30 years, so it is not new. In the past, it was an admix in high strength concrete, primarily as a water reducing agent and to improve workability. Today, it is used more and more as a cement replacement because it is cheaper than cement (or should be). While it is a pozzolan like cement, it is not as strong as Portland Cement and several different characteristics....some good, some not.
Manufacturing cement is a very un-green process. It uses a LOT of energy and is very dirty. Fly ash is a waste product that, as Chicano pointed out, requires special disposal, so using it in concrete makes sense. Silica fume is another "by product" used in special concrete mixes but it is very expensive, however. Shrinkage can be a problem in concrete with large doses of fly ash or silica fume, so don't indescriminately start ordering fly ash concrete to be green.
Bruce
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cmkavala
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Posts:862
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| 08/25/2008 8:18 AM |
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Posted By Chicano on 08/24/2008 9:58 PM
cmkavala...you said one could expect to pay MORE for a NON-Fly Ash mix....and Chris Johnson said that cement companies charge $1 per % of fly ash just because they can. So, is it cheaper to get a non-fly ash mix or not? I guess I should call some companies...kind of difficult from Japan, but maybe that's what I'll do. Hmmm, think I shift to reading some of the "concrete mix" forums. At least it sounds like no one is particularly concerned about any of the concrete addititives. I am a little surprised though since I figured concrete underground could leech such contaminents into the soil. Guess not.
Bruce,
Thanks for the tip on LEED points. I didn't even know what that was till I googled it. Are there any tangible benefits? I don't mean money per se, but is there any benefit other than bragging rights? The fly ash mix is cheaper in our area as it is used to replace cement as a binder, concrete companies claim to fame .........is they are green by putting waste in the mix?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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JadeHaus
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icfcontractor
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Posts:237
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| 08/26/2008 1:16 AM |
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Jade,
I work with a concrete producer and we have developed mix designs that have greater than 50% cement replacement. We typically will opt for slag over fly ash due to the unpredicability of fly ash. The carbon content of fly is not constant and can cause odd things to happen to your concrete over 15%. In a current mix design that we made up for a "green concrete" spec on a 4 story condo project we used 40% slag 10% flyash and 50% cement. This mix was slow to develop strength, at 2 days it was barely over 800 psi but at 7 days it was almost 4000 psi and its final strength was almost 6000 psi. We have done some work on designs that were upto 75% cement replacement and that really retarded the strength and instead of a 28 day break you have to go to a 56 day break.
So what this all means is cement replacements are fine but you need to make sure that the people doing them have experience with them because you may not get a result you are looking for.
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