TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:231
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| 10/26/2008 9:08 PM |
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The nightmare continues, or more specificially my nightmare. Today my wife said the Dryer wouldn't turn on and when I checked the Breaker panel, I noticed that three breakers were tripped, The Dryer, the Electric Range and the Compressor for my ASHP. So I turned off the ASHP and turned it back on, to be suprised by a shower of sparks coming from the Supply side to the main circuit breaker and the ASHP tripped again.
Now there two possible causes of tripping breakers, either a dead short circuit or an overloaded circuit. Since the sparks came from the Main, I suspect that the Circuit Breaker panel is overloaded. I opened up the breaker panel, turned off the New Geothermal unit and turned off it's circuit breakers. I then carefully turned on The Dryer, The Range and the ASPH and nothing tripped or sparked. So there fore, no Shorts. Looking at the 200 AMP Breaker panel Service, I have the 50 AMP Range, 20 AMP ASHP Compressor, 60 Amp Geothermal Blower/Backup Heat and the Dryer on one side of the panel and on the other side two 50 AMP SubPanel Feeds, Hot water heater, Water Pump and one 30 AMP breaker of unknown Function. Most of the Breaker on the Panel are doubles, that is to say all the single breakers have been replaced with double breakers, with the Exception of the 60 AMP full side breaker for the Geothermal Blower/backup heat. All of the Breakers that tripped are on the same side of the 60 AMP Geothermal Breaker. So I ran a New Line from the Garage Subpanel to the Main breaker box, disconnected the Wires to the ASHP and connected them to the new breaker line to the Garage. So some of the load from one side of the panel is transferred to the Other side where the Sub-panel is. I turned everything back on and checked to make sure everything was working ok. (To Clarify this statement, I had both the ASHP and the Geothermal System on at the same time, I however didn't turn on the Dryer and Range to add to the fun.) For now, it seems to be ok, but for how long I can't say.
My guess is, I'll have to get the service upgrade to a 300 AMP Service to solve this problem. I know the Electric Company is responsiable for the Wire that comes to the pole to where it connects to the house (or in my case an underground service), but what I don't know is if the line from the pole needs to be upgraded to supply a larger service panel, weather or not they charge a fee to do this. If the line is already big enough, or there is no cost to me, I'm guessing it shouldn't cost any more the 3k to install a 300 AMP service. Anyone have any ideas?
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:386
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| 10/26/2008 10:42 PM |
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Buddy,
I'm a little alarmed for you, and don't want you to be to casual about this.
Sparks are not, NOT, a sign of inadequate service; something is very wrong there.
Overloaded breakers will be hot and not reset. Sparks mean shorts (though they can be intermittent).
Get an expert out there and turn off your computer until it's fixed (so you can tell us what went wrong).
Keep us posted.
Joe |
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tuffluckdriller
Registered Users
Posts:416
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| 10/26/2008 11:45 PM |
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| With sparks like that, you might likely have a phase to phase short. Listen to Joe, please. Get a pro there. |
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Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal, Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
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engineer
Registered Users
Posts:445
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| 10/27/2008 5:32 AM |
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Arcing within the panel - something loose in there?
Get an electrician pronto.
I doubt you'll need to upgrade to 300 Amp service, though. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:231
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| 10/27/2008 10:07 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 10/27/2008 5:32 AM
Arcing within the panel - something loose in there?
Hmm I guess I could kill the Main and Check everything for Tightness. But the Feed into the main is going to be problematic without pulling the Meter. I would have expected that is it shorts out one time, I would short out everytime. Intermitted shorts does pose a problem.
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a0128958
Registered Users
Posts:191
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| 10/27/2008 10:13 AM |
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Posted By TechGromit on 10/26/2008 9:08 PM
... suprised by a shower of sparks coming from the Supply side to the main circuit breaker ...
If this were to happen in my house with a family living in it:
I'd shut down every non-essential circuit, and request a qualified electrician as rapidly as possible to figure out what the problem is and fix it.
I believe you're risking a fire to do otherwise.
Best regards,
Bill
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gregj
Registered Users
Posts:168
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| 10/27/2008 10:31 AM |
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TG, When you have 240 v circuits they are drawing from "both sides" regardless of whether they are physically located on one side of the panel or the other so all your double pole 240 v breakers are balanced. Switching double pole breakers from side to side on the panel will not do anything.
I agree with the others that your description does not appear to be that of an overload that would require upgrade to 300 amp service. It is likely to be a wire connection to a breaker that is insufficiently torqued - likely one of the service entrance cables to the main breaker. |
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Brock
Registered Users
Posts:209
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| 10/27/2008 9:03 PM |
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I agree that your current service should be fine (size wise). But something is wrong with that panel, my guess is a loose connection that is adding resistance and heat build up and eventually popping it. With a more modest load feel the front for heat, if it is really warm in one spot that’s where your problem is.
I would also agree in having an electrician check everything over, not something you want to do yourself. |
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Green Bay, WI. - geothermal heated indoor pool with a small solar setup |
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engineer
Registered Users
Posts:445
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| 10/27/2008 9:39 PM |
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Heat buildup from a place of higher resistance is NOT sufficient, to my knowledge, to trip a conventional circuit breaker - they react to overcurrent only
This is why code revisions increasingly call for use of Arc Fault breakers despite their 10x expense and nuisance trips. This is a situation separate from ground fault protection, BTW.
Don't go poking around in a live panel with metal tools... the resulting shower of sparks will likely be both more violent and more personal than what you've experienced so far. If in fact your geo installer was the last one in that panel, this issue may be on them.
A qualified electrician needs to go over your panel, not just to tighten things down but also to check for burn damage to bus bars and main lugs / breakers. Minor burns may be able to be filed / cleaned away, but the burnt material can't be left where it interferes with bus bar conductivity or where individual breakers connect to the bar or the problem will continue and worsen, increasing fire risk. Worst case is you'll need a new panel
Electrician should also be able to check geo compressor and strip heat conductor sizes and breaker ampacity for both code compliance and compliance with geo system nameplate ratings.
If your geo guy blames the 200 A service, saying it needs to be 300A and that caused your problem, you may need to lawyer up... |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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TechGromit
Registered Users
Posts:231
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| 10/28/2008 12:27 AM |
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I took another look at the panel when I got home, the Main wires are not warm at all, None of the breakers are warm either. I don't see any obvious damage where I saw the sparks come from, except for blackened soot of the service panel. I've toyed with the idea of killing the main and using a taped up hex wrench and rubber gloves to tighten the feed cables. With no live current going thru them, the risk should be minimal. I guess I'll break down and call an electrician, I'm kind of mystified where the sparks came from, the obvious point of origin would be the main feed, but I don't see any evidence. I even removed the breaker that caused the original problem, but i dont see anything wrong with the service bar it's connected to.
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engineer
Registered Users
Posts:445
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| 10/28/2008 7:16 AM |
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Whether current is flowing through the main lugs in no way lessens the danger posed by them being live while you tighten them. Please don't do this without removing the meter can or otherwise deenergizing the entire box.
I tried something similar once - I still have the screwdriver with a burnt and rounded end, though I did throw away the underwear I had on at the time... |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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a0128958
Registered Users
Posts:191
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| 10/28/2008 10:31 AM |
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When I installed my current transformers on my main wires, I wasn't willing to do the installation live (using a hex wrench, gloves, etc.). I pulled the meter - it's not difficult.
Best regards,
Bill |
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engineer
Registered Users
Posts:445
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| 10/28/2008 11:27 AM |
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Pulling a meter is easy, but doing so requires severing the utility's seal, which may be illegal.
I imagine a homeowner would get away with it by pleading ignorance (and assuming their power use doesn't inexplicably drop, giving rise to suspicion that they replaced the meter with a set of jumper cables. I suppose if you let them know promptly they'd grumble a bit and reseal it.
Bill - what was your experience with that?
On my new house I specified main breakers separate from the panels so I could safely work in my panels (while preserving tools and underwear) |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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Brock
Registered Users
Posts:209
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| 10/28/2008 3:02 PM |
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| Bill I take it those are for the WEL? It' odd, most clamp on readers I have seen actually spring open for connecting to the mains so you don't have to remove the lugs. In our new panels you can't see/touch the main lugs coming in without removing a small plastic shield. So if you have the main breaker off, you would really have to work at it to get at them, and can safely work on the rest of the panel. |
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Green Bay, WI. - geothermal heated indoor pool with a small solar setup |
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a0128958
Registered Users
Posts:191
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| 10/28/2008 10:36 PM |
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Brock, yes, the current transformers are for the WattNode power monitoring unit. It's the WattNode that direct connects to the WEL's pulse counter input ports. In my case, with current transformers rated at 200 Amps full scale, one pulse from the WattNode to the WEL is counted in the WEL as 4 watts.
I could have selected current transformers that clamp on, versus the torroid design that I'm using (that require pulling wire out to insert). I chose the torroid design because accuracy is greater.
With the WattNode capable of a 4 watt accuracy on a 200 Amp service, I wanted to take full advantage of this high resolution capability, hence choosing to use the 'donut design' transformers.
See http://www.ccontrolsys.com/ and http://www.welserver.com/ for details.
Best regards,
Bill |
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joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:386
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| 10/28/2008 10:47 PM |
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Respectfully disagree on breakers tripping only due to overcurrent and not heat. Seen many occasions where breakers tripped and would not reset due to heat generated almost universally by a loose wire somewhere. Now if heat build up begins to cause resistance in connections........
J |
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Brock
Registered Users
Posts:209
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| 10/29/2008 3:46 PM |
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| Bill, good to know. Now I will have to get those instead of clamp on's once I get our WEL. ;) |
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Green Bay, WI. - geothermal heated indoor pool with a small solar setup |
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engineer
Registered Users
Posts:445
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| 10/29/2008 7:07 PM |
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Joe,
As usual I defer to your greater experience in the field.
A bit of research showed me that one of the trip mechanisms in a typical CB is heat buildup via current through a bimetal strip. Heat makes it bend and break the circuit.
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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