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egouinUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 3:37 PM  
I am presently waiting for my home to be delivered (due July 21, 2008).  If our research is correct, it will be the first true modular house ever built using SIP exterior walls.  This will not be a panelized or kit house like others who claimed to have dome this.  It will arrive in four large sections and be nearly 90% complete when it arrives.  Oh, and it will have R40 polyurethane SIP exterior walls.

Why am I telling you this...?  Because I think everyone should be building this way for their family and the planet.  The cost is a little higher than a standard modular house (and not as much as you might expect), but it is MUCH less expensive than a site-built SIP house.  In fact, the economics work out quite favorably.

Check out www.GouinGreen.com to learn all about my project and our progress.

Ed
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 3:52 PM  
SE modular has been building with steel SIPs for at least 3 years  http://www.southeastmodular.net/


Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
egouinUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 4:08 PM  
I don't think this is quite the same, but it could certainly be debated.  Their photo gallery shows commercial buildings and "double wide" like projects.  I'm talking about a "real" custom two story house with an almost completely finished interior.  Can their SIP house look like this...?

http://www.pennlyon.com/gallery/two_story/twostry_6.html

Pick one of their designs, or design your own (we did), and they can build it using R23 EPS SIPs or R40 poly SIPs AND do it cost effectively.  Just expect it to take a little longer.  It is a new process for them and is slower than usual.

Ed

 
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 4:16 PM  
Ed;

the technlogy is the same, SE mod was applying stuc-o-flex directly to their steel panels for the exterior finish. They are definitely industrial looking. But I think they all come in on wheels and a hitch.

Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
GeorgiaTomUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 4:25 PM  
Posted By cmkavala on 07/05/2008 4:16 PM
Ed;

the technlogy is the same, SE mod was applying stuc-o-flex directly to their steel panels for the exterior finish. They are definitely industrial looking. But I think they all come in on wheels and a hitch.
Trailers! now we're talkin!

wesUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 7:38 PM  
Sorry Ed,
We did a five box SIPS modular two years ago. And by anybody's definition, it is a true modular. It came out of traditional modular plant, who switched to SIPS for this project, at our request.
Actually guys, the major difference between modulars and HUD code trailers is the fact that modulars are not dependent upon a steel framework for structural support. Most are delivered on steel low-boy trailers which have wheels and a hitch, but the trailers go back to the factory after the modular is unloaded.
By the way Ed, who is building your modular?  Are they planning to continue building with SIPS?

Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net
egouinUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 7:55 PM  
Wes - Penn Lyon Homes is doing our house using SIPs from The Murus Company.  Both are located in Pennsylvania.

Which company built the home you are referring to?  In all the research I and the factory did, all we could find was a company that panelized their homes using SIPs.

I can't speak for Penn Lyon, but it would seem to me that unless they run into major snags with our house they will continue to offer this as a product.  If my information is correct, they have one or more others already in their pipeline. 

In my opinion, they will have a winning product if it is marketed properly.  Most people (including most contractors) don't know (or care) what SIPs are.  The product needs to be marketed as being energy efficient and "green".  Demonstrable heating and cooling numbers will also help.

Regards,
Ed

PS - maybe we can say we are the first ones to use R40 SIPs!? :-)
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 8:20 PM  
Most mobile homes are built with 2 rails and and out rigger frames, many commercial modulars are built with perimeter steel I- beam frames and wood or steel joists in between.
I've never seen any structural problems with the better built mods, but electrical & plumbing sytems are not built to local codes, they are exempt thru the Department of Community Affairs . They only need to comply with tie-down & anchoring to codes.
I used to carry an official letter with me from the state's DCA office and discretely tell the building inspectors they were not allowed to inspect any part of the modular. It made an easy job for me, but it always bothered me that they were using romex plugs to connect sections together that were not accessible by junction box.
The other unfortunate thing is; while I have seen some well built modular homes, their appraised re-sale values are still less

Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
egouinUser is Offline
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07/05/2008 9:22 PM  
HUD built homes are exempt from local codes. I am not talking about a HUD home in my case. Our house must conform to all state and local codes. It will sit on a full foundation. I am willing to bet that when the house is complete most people will not know it was built modularly.

Our appraisal is on-par with the neighbors stick framed house. I am also willing to bet that our house will appraise better in the future because of its low energy use.

Ed
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07/06/2008 8:10 AM  
Egoin,

Hi, I have tried to look at the picture album but I con't see any pic's.  No one is trying to rain on your parade but know that it is hard to post on a forum like this claiming to have something new when collectivaly ther is litterlay hundreds of years of experience following along.

On your web page you mention going with conviential roof.  In FL that is the biggest part of a sip house that helps  make it hurricane proof.  Why not use steel sips for the roof.  They can be installed in one day with no cranes.   But even still are you not going to use a crane to set the sections of the home on the foundation?
wesUser is Offline
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07/06/2008 8:57 AM  
Chris,
True mods are built to the EXACT same codes as site built homes, including any local or municipal percularities. If its called a mod and has any type of code exemption, then its a trailer--excuse me, HUD code-- product.
That's the main problem with mods here in KY. The state building codes people are OK to work with, but the plumbing codes people are from hell itself. They will not accept third party inspections. So if a mod is built in PA for delivery into KY, somebody has to pay for a state inspector to travel to the plant, inspect the work done by a KY licensed master plumber, spend a couple days and nights waiting for all the corrections to be completed (there are ALWAYS corrections) and then reinspect the work. And the inspector is on the clock the whole time. Talk about unnecessary.
Ed- our mod was done by Geometric Building Systems out of Tennessee.

Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net
egouinUser is Offline
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07/06/2008 10:38 AM  
Posted By Donaldson on 07/06/2008 8:10 AM
Egoin,

Hi, I have tried to look at the picture album but I con't see any pic's.  No one is trying to rain on your parade but know that it is hard to post on a forum like this claiming to have something new when collectivaly ther is litterlay hundreds of years of experience following along.

On your web page you mention going with conviential roof.  In FL that is the biggest part of a sip house that helps  make it hurricane proof.  Why not use steel sips for the roof.  They can be installed in one day with no cranes.   But even still are you not going to use a crane to set the sections of the home on the foundation?

We don't really have much to look at yet.  The house will not arrive until July 21, 2008.  Here is an album of what we have done so far: http://www.gouingreen.com/images/Oasis/index.html

I don't feel like anyone is raining on my parade... I wish I had discovered this forum years ago.  It would have saved me a lot of time. :-)  I also wish that previous innovators would share their projects so the wheel doesn't need to be reinvented time and again.  I sincerely don't care if we are 1st or last... Anyone combining SIPs and modular into a single product, is creating a product good for the family living in it, and for the environment.  I know one thing is certain... I am the first to publicize this type of house - regardless of how many times it has been done before.

Please trust me when I say - I tried to use a SIP roof.  I examined every possibility.  The modular factory has their folding roof system down to a science, and the cost is impossible to beat (at least here in the Northeast).  Even if the materials cost less with SIPs, the on-site labor (with or without a crane) kills us. 

We also have the additional issue of finding a willing contractor.  Contractors with knowledge of SIPs in this area are very difficult to find.  When you do find them, their services come at a substantial premium over already high local labor rates.  I finally settled for a stick built roof constructed in the factory.  We'll insulate on site with closed cell spray foam and 2" rigid foam board (to create a structure nearly matching the thermal and structural performance of SIPs).

One other aspect to consider is the location of the materials being used.  Steel SIPs sound wonderful, but I haven't come across anyone making them locally.   The cost to truck the materials from Florida to Massachusetts (at over $3.00 per mile) tends to erode the financial analysis even further.

For our project, the SIP manufacturer and the modular factory are within 60 miles of one another.  Trucking the modules from Pennsylvania to Massachusetts will cost us about $15,000.  The good news is, it still makes much better financial sense than a site-built house (at least in this area of the country).

Ed

NWPUser is Offline
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07/06/2008 1:49 PM  
HI Ed,

Great idea, are you dong just the walls or are you including the roof system in sips also, 90% of you heat loss is through the rood not the walls. Are they using the cam lock system.

Ralph
GeorgiaTomUser is Offline
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07/06/2008 10:26 PM  
Posted By egouin on 07/05/2008 9:22 PM


 I am also willing to bet that our house will appraise better in the future because of its low energy use.

Ed
They should, but you will be hard pressed to find an appraiser to that will give any additional value

egouinUser is Offline
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07/07/2008 12:12 AM  
Posted By NWP on 07/06/2008 1:49 PM
HI Ed,

Great idea, are you dong just the walls or are you including the roof system in sips also, 90% of you heat loss is through the rood not the walls. Are they using the cam lock system.

Ralph

Walls are SIP.  Roof will be closed cell spray foam.  Yes, using the cam lock system.

Ed
egouinUser is Offline
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07/07/2008 9:44 AM  

I have an idea... let's put our knowledge together and come up with a comprehensive list of manufacturers who offer SIP modular construction and their location. 

After my personal extensive and exhaustive web search, I was under the distinct impression that our house was the first of its kind.  If this is not the case, I feel I/we owe it to the world to let people know where they might get a house like this (which is why I built www.GouinGreen.com).

Here is a description of the SIP/modular product I am talking about...

1 - The product must use some form of structural insulated panel (SIP) (OSB, steel, concrete, etc skins) for exterior walls/shell in lieu of traditional framing lumber.
2 - Their product must be almost entirely constructed in a modular factory (kitchens, baths, finished ceilings and walls, etc), trucked to the job site, and craned into place.
3 - The product must be a "real" modular home.  (No HUD homes, no trailers, no panelized homes, no empty shells, etc.)  Any steel sub-frames should be for structural reasons and not for ease of future movement.
4 - The product must meet all state and local building codes - no "exempt" homes (this disqualifies HUD homes).

If you have something to add to this, please do.

Thanks,
Ed





NWPUser is Offline
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07/07/2008 6:44 PM  
Hey Ed,

I have talked with Epoch and they are lookiing at using sips in furture projects, i and my mechanincal engineer have come up with a way to incorporate roof panels and ship them as a true Modular, this is propietary information and we can not release until we get a company who wants to pick it up.

thanks for the follow up today,

Ralph
loracUser is Offline
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07/08/2008 6:03 PM  
ED,
I'm very interested in building a modular with the SIP's. Actually today we went to Mansfield to Murus and spoke to John. He wasn't very good at recommending his SIP's. It was like pulling teeth to get him to even answer questions. We thought he would explain exactly why we should use the SIP's. Never did he say that anyone was using SIP's to build there home, even after we told him we had already gotten mod home quotes from Pennwest modulars. We were very disappointed in the presentation by Murus. SO, when we got home I started to look for other SIP manufacturers in PA. We found one in St. Thomas who has house packages, which includes inside walls (I'm not sure if they are finished with dry wall though), doors, windows, rafters, etc. I just requested information form them today. How much of a difference is the price from the conventional modular to one built with SIP's. Are we talking several thousand or ten thousand? I am curious to see how your house turns out. Once it is delivered will you be able to move right in? thanks, Carol
egouinUser is Offline
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07/08/2008 8:22 PM  

Hi Carol,

I think Murus is a great company, however, our personal visit was interesting, but anti-climactic.  I thought of it this way... it's a factory where they make building products.  I never visited a plywood factory or a carpet factory so I have no real concept of what these things should be like.  Beyond that, I don't really know what to say.

My personal experience has been that site-built SIP construction is significantly more expensive than traditional stick-frame.  It is fairly easy to find studies (and contractors) that are reporting it is less expensive (labor savings), but I have not seen that in reality.  You may find that these "home packages" appear to be a good deal, but it has also been my experience that the carpenters, electricians, and plumbers will charge you more to finish the house because it can be a little more work for them.  In the end, I've found that modular is the way to go because they fully utilize the construction efficiency of SIPs and that savings is passed on. 

In terms of actual cost, we are building a larger sized house.  The cost to go from R19 fiberglass and 2x6" construction to R23 SIP was approximately $2000.  Polyurethane SIPs are more expensive.  The real number is buried so far in our GC numbers that I may never really know.  For arguments sake, let's say the cost to upgrade to R40 was in the neighborhood of $10,000 (assuming it would cost less for a smaller house).   Keep in mind, I am estimating.  Very few people know the actual cost of the upgrade.

I would encourage you to contact Penn Lyon directly: 1-800-788-4754.  They can put you in touch with a local builder who can provide you with some real numbers.  If you are near Selinsgrove, you will save many thousands of dollars in transportation costs alone (ours are ~$15k+).

It will take us several weeks of "button up" work before the house is complete.  Countertops, hardwood floors, HVAC, finish electric and plumbing, painting, deck, etc.  Some of these things could have been done in the factory, but for various reasons we chose to do them onsite.  We are hoping to move in around September 1st.

The benefits of SIPs, in general, are too numerous to list (and can get pretty technical pretty quickly).  The added benefit of cost savings and quality building with modular construction are real.  I will have to let you know later about the energy efficiency, but I've done enough research to believe it on faith right now.

Hope this helps.

Ed



 
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