Ratman
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 07/12/2008 9:21 PM |
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I am looking at duilding a zero energy home using 6" polyurethane / OSB SIp's. I was told bay a Sip manufacturer that the polyurethane SIP's have been known to delaminate if water penetrates the siding. He also mentioned polyurethane SIP's have been known to delminate due to chamical breakdown caused by aging..
Can anyone confim these claims and if so, can this happen with ESP/OSB panels as well? |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 07/13/2008 9:32 AM |
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Posted By Ratman on 07/12/2008 9:21 PM
I am looking at duilding a zero energy home using 6" polyurethane / OSB SIp's. I was told bay a Sip manufacturer that the polyurethane SIP's have been known to delaminate if water penetrates the siding. He also mentioned polyurethane SIP's have been known to delminate due to chamical breakdown caused by aging..
Can anyone confim these claims and if so, can this happen with ESP/OSB panels as well?
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Attachment: AcceleratedAgingTestreport.pdf
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Ratman
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 07/13/2008 8:17 PM |
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CMKAVAK,
I have been tracking the conversation on the steel vs OSB blog... And this is not my question...
My question is.. is there a delamination comparison between EPS core vs PolyU on OSB? |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 07/13/2008 8:53 PM |
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Posted By Ratman on 07/13/2008 8:17 PM
CMKAVAK,
I have been tracking the conversation on the steel vs OSB blog... And this is not my question...
My question is.. is there a delamination comparison between EPS core vs PolyU on OSB?
I don't think your source is credible, ask the SIPs mfg. to substantiate their claim, otherwise don't believe everything you hear
I have not seen a comparison like that ........ any SIP can delaminate if not manufactured with proper quality controls
PU is known to shrink and lose r-value , known as "thermal drift", but I have not heard of water affecting the PU adhesion
But its not a question of delamination if the OSB gets wet , I am sure you will still have chunks of wood still clinging to the core and at that point a structural failure
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Thermo
Registered Users
Posts:7
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| 07/15/2008 5:44 PM |
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Ratman,
With OSB sandwich panels, whether it be EPS or PU, the OSB is going to absorb water if it is exposed to wet weather conditions for a long period of time. This is why a moisture barrier should be applied to the panel immediately following the installation.
Now as for the foam materials, polyurethane absorbs less moisture, so they will dry out faster than EPS. Now this will also cut down on creeping of water and reduce the dangers of mold and mildew in the home.
Nowto answer the delamination question. As I stated before, OSB will absorb moisture if not covered with a moisture barrier following the install of the panels. Now as long as this is done, there should be no concerns about delamination. Infact, Thermocore as well as Thermocore of Missouri (Both Polyurethane SIP manufactures) offer a lifetime warrenty againest delamination.
Now Chris/Southern Sips,
You stated that PU is KNOWN to shrink and lose R-value. Where do you get your facts?
Independent tests have confirmed time and time again that Thermocore panel R-values remain constant. In fact, Thermocore sends aged panels out to be tested on an annual basis. All of our panels are tested in accordance with ASTM C518 and are done in a laboratory setting. Our most recent test on a panel in excess of three years old confirmed no loss of R-value. Studies at Oak Ridge National Laboratories on various panels made with polyurethane foam cores confirmed no measurable loss of R-value.
Thanks,
Mikey Mantle
Thermocore of Missouri |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 07/15/2008 7:42 PM |
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Posted By Thermo on 07/15/2008 5:44 PM
Ratman,
Now Chris/Southern Sips,
You stated that PU is KNOWN to shrink and lose R-value. Where do you get your facts?
Thanks,
Mikey Mantle
Thermocore of Missouri
Thermo;
who paid for those tests?
my info comes from the US Dept. Of Energy:
Polyurethane Insulation Materials
Polyurethane is a closed-cell foam insulation material that contains a low-conductivity gas (usually hydrochlorofluorocarbons or HCFC) in its cells. The high thermal resistance of the gas gives polyurethane insulation materials an R-value typically around R-7 to R-8 per inch.
Over time, the R-value of polyurethane insulation can drop as some of the low-conductivity gas escapes and air replaces it. This phenomenon is known as thermal drift. Experimental data indicates that most thermal drift occurs within the first two years after the insulation material is manufactured. The R-value then slowly decreases. For example, if the insulation has an initial R-value of R-9 per inch, it will probably eventually drop to R-7 per inch. The R-value then remains unchanged unless the foam is damaged.
Polyurethane insulation is available as a liquid sprayed foam and rigid foam board. It can also be made into laminated insulation panels with a variety of facings.
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Thermo
Registered Users
Posts:7
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| 07/16/2008 11:56 AM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 07/15/2008 7:42 PM Thermo; who paid for those tests?
Polyurethane is a closed-cell foam insulation material that contains a low-conductivity gas (usually hydrochlorofluorocarbons or HCFC) in its cells. The high thermal resistance of the gas gives polyurethane insulation materials an R-value typically around R-7 to R-8 per inch.
Over time, the R-value of polyurethane insulation can drop as some of the low-conductivity gas escapes and air replaces it. This phenomenon is known as thermal drift. Experimental data indicates that most thermal drift occurs within the first two years after the insulation material is manufactured. The R-value then slowly decreases. For example, if the insulation has an initial R-value of R-9 per inch, it will probably eventually drop to R-7 per inch. The R-value then remains unchanged unless the foam is damaged.
Polyurethane insulation is available as a liquid sprayed foam and rigid foam board. It can also be made into laminated insulation panels with a variety of facings.
Chris,
What difference does it make who paid for the testing? If the information is creditable, it really doesn't make a difference on who paid to have the testing done.
BASF has changed the coolant in their polyurethane foam at the beginning of 2008 and there are no longer any HCFC's in their closed-cell polyurethane foam.
And what is fact in this sentence you quoted from the US Dept. of Energy. " For example, if the insulation has an initial R-value of R-9 per inch, it will probably eventually drop to R-7 per inch."
Come on "probably eventually", did the US Dept. of Energy actually say that? Is that a scientific term?
Mikey Mantle
Thermocore of Missouri
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 07/16/2008 3:15 PM |
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Posted By Thermo on 07/16/2008 11:56 AM
.Chris,
What difference does it make who paid for the testing? If the information is creditable, it really doesn't make a difference on who paid to have the testing done.
Come on "probably eventually", did the US Dept. of Energy actually say that? Is that a scientific term?
Mikey Mantle
Thermocore of Missouri
this is where the "golden rule" applies, he who has the gold makes the rules or if the King is paying for the report ....it better favor the King ..... so by your answer we could assume Thermocore paid for the unbiased report?
"probably eventually" as a matter of fact was a direct quote, I guess you did not take the time to go to the previously posted link so here it is again
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11600
This was not the only place I have seen the statement, but it certainly is a credible source?
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Thermo
Registered Users
Posts:7
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| 07/16/2008 5:37 PM |
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Posted By cmkavala on 07/16/2008 3:15 PM
M - M; this is where the "golden rule" applies, he who has the gold makes the rules or if the King is paying for the report ....it better favor the King ..... so by your answer we could assume Thermocore paid for the unbiased report? "probably eventually" as a matter of fact was a direct quote, I guess you did not take the time to go to the previously posted link so here it is again http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/insulation_airsealing/index.cfm/mytopic=11600This was not the only place I have seen the statement, but it certainly is a credible source?
The fact of the matter is that the link is outdated, poorly worded, and shows no scientific data to back it. Nor did the site say anything about shinkage of Polyurethane, which you said that Polyurethane does over time.
Yes, Thermocore did use foam containing HCFC's until the being of 2008 and the change over was not because of loss of r-value or shrinkage. As I stated before, testing done by Oak Ridge National Lab., one of the most credible testing facilities on energy efficiency in the US, has shown no measurable loss of r-value in the panels that used foam containing HCFC's. Thermocore did not request nor pay for the testing done by ORNL, so your "golden rule" would not apply in this case.
In addition, Thermocore has a 3rd party testing facility test the panels every quarter to insure quality to our customers.
Now I didn't come on this forum to argue with you Chris. I just wanted to set the story straight on Polyurethane.
Ratman,
I hope that your questions were answered, but if you or anyone else would like additional information, please feel free to contact me or check out our website.
Regards,
Mikey Mantle
Thermocore of Missouri
mikey@thermocoremo.com
www.thermocoremo.com |
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cmkavala
Registered Users
Posts:804
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| 07/16/2008 5:58 PM |
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Mikey Mantle;
the original post was regarding delam of PU due to chemical breakdown & aging.
I posted the thermal drift and shrinkage info and
YOU asked where I got my facts, so I gave it to you. I'm not arguing ........ I answered your question.
If you think that the DOE's info "Content Last Updated: December 21, 2007" is out dated ... so be it
Where do you get your facts: polyurethane absorbs less moisture, so they will dry out faster than EPS
Its a question
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Opus
Registered Users
Posts:51
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| 07/16/2008 7:22 PM |
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| I have owned windsurfers made with a polyurethane core and also with a polystyrene core. The polyurethane ones delaminate when they get a hole in them . The polystyrene one are much more durable. Since water is always a possibility no matter how we try to keep it out I would personally not use polyurethane SIPS. Just my thoughts. |
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jmagill
Registered Users
Posts:91
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| 07/16/2008 7:43 PM |
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We have a 4' x 4' OSB polystyrene (r-control) sitting leaning against our guest house.
It has been there for over 6 years. It has seen rain and several feet of snow for all that time.
It is right under the drip edge.
There is some swelling and flaking of the OSB. There is no delamination. |
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rnortman
Registered Users
Posts:94
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| 07/17/2008 12:52 PM |
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It seems to me, going on my intuition and common sense only, no actual data, that the most likely cause of delamination of OSB SIPs, regardless of the type of foam, is not the failure of the foam/OSB bond itself, but rather failure of the OSB due to excessive, chronic moisture exposure. So the OSB rots and pulls away from the core, leaving a thin layer of wood chips and fiber attached to the foam. If indeed PUR foam is less absorbent than EPS (and I don't know that it is, but this is one of many claims made above), then it could make this problem more likely by refusing to absorb moisture from the OSB and therefore the OSB remains wetter at the OSB/foam boundary. If the PUR is very hydrophobic, that itself may weaken the bond with the OSB if the OSB is wet.
I'm just speculating here, but this is at least an unbiased speculation as I have no association with any SIPs manufacturers or vendors.
Of course, the important lesson here is: avoid chronic moisture exposure to OSB, even exterior-grade OSB. Keep water out in the first place as much as possible, and provide a way for any water that makes it through to drain/evaporate away from the OSB. This is true even if you're building with galvanized steel -- all building materials are sensitive to chronic moisture exposure to some extent. Some more than others. Don't kid yourself into thinking your walls are waterproof.
The story told above about the piece of EPS/OSP SIP that's been left out exposed to the elements for a few years is a good example of how drainage allows you to recover from moisture infiltration. The exposed OSB has great drainage and no vapor barriers to trap in the moisture, so it survives despite direct exposure to rain.
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Thermo
Registered Users
Posts:7
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| 07/17/2008 3:15 PM |
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Chris,
To answer your question on the moisture absorption of Polyurethane Vs. Expanded Polystyrene.
My information comes from the 2001 ASHRAE Fundimental Handbook, Section 25.16, Table 9.
It states that the moisture permeability for Polyurethane foam is .4 to 1.6 per in. and that Expanded Polystyrene is 2.0 to 5.8 per in.
I beleive that you can also get this information from the Society of Plastics Industry. |
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slenzen
Registered Users
Posts:163
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| 07/17/2008 4:52 PM |
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| Dont they use a polyurethane glue for the EPS sip sandwich? |
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Opus
Registered Users
Posts:51
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| 07/17/2008 7:13 PM |
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| They do use polyurethane glue. The glue isn't the problem . When Polyurethane foam gets wet it falls apart. Polystyrene doesn't. Extruded polystyrene is very durable and doesn't absorb water. Expanded polystyrene is made from small expanded beads and as such there are small spaces between the beads that will hold water. Water does not degrade the foam though. Submerge a piece of polyurethane foam under water and see what you have in a week. I think that will help you decide. |
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Ratman
Registered Users
Posts:18
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| 07/18/2008 1:29 AM |
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Thank you all for your comments and opinions. My hypothesis is. By following design and build leading practices there is little to no difference in risk between EPS and PU cores if the PU core is manufactured after 2008...
Find a SIP manufacturer that stands behind their product with a long term warranty.. |
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