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Forums > Green Building Technologies > Structural Insulated Panels (SIPs) > Subject: fastening splines on the bottom...

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reconditeUser is Offline
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07/09/2008 8:54 AM  
Ok, every manual I see has details of splines connecting two panels on a (more or less) flat roof, which shows use of both sealer/adhesive and screws or nails through the OSB into the spline material, on both the top AND the bottom faces.  This is so, whether the splines are OSB in routed edges, dimension lumber, or sip splines in fully routed edges.  The specification also has written requirements for both sides mechanically fastened.

Suppose I have a roof, nearly flat, 50' by 24', for which it will be necessary to join several panels to cover the area.  The roof is supported by glulam beams, covered with 2" pine T&G decking before the sips are placed.  The panel sizes can be chosen such that the joins occur directly over the supporting beams on 4' or 6' centers, or not.  The T&G hides the bottom sides of the panels. 

Can someone explain to me how one places the screws on the bottom of a SIP assembly that will ultimately weigh a ton or more? 

What is standard proctice?

Stan

wesUser is Offline
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07/09/2008 7:31 PM  
If the glulam beams are supporting the 2" T&G on 4'-6' centers, this will carry the load of the panels. This is the perfect spot to use nail base panels. These panels have OSB on one side only. This OSB is the sheathing to which your finish roof is applied. The nail base splines normally are OSB and are easily nailed/stapled. The panels are then screwed to your T&G or beams with panel fasteners. No screws/nails applied from the bottom.

Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/09/2008 7:50 PM  
Stan;

you wouldn't have joints if you used steel SIPs, they come up to 53 ft. long, are about 1/2 the weight of OSB and do not require splines

Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
wesUser is Offline
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07/09/2008 8:02 PM  
Chris,
Why spend the money for full blown steel SIPS when the much more economical nail base panels will work very well? Steel sips are a nice product, but like anything, they are better for some things than others. In this case, with the glu-lams and 2" T&G in place, they are overkill and a waste of money.


Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net
reconditeUser is Offline
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07/09/2008 8:14 PM  
I'm trying to get someone who is experirnced in the actual application of OSB SIPs, to tell us how one places any fasteners on the bottom side of joins. 

This is a problem, and no one I have talked to has any solution except to omit those fasteners. 

The suggestion that one eliminate all joins is not useful. 

This appears to be an unmentionable secret.  Someone from SIPA, perhaps?

Stan


GsfreyUser is Offline
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07/09/2008 8:37 PM  
Stan,

I do not have an answer for your problem. But, we use tongue and groove sips on the roofs and insert a EPS tongue into a sip panel with a groove the same depth as the length of the exposed EPS. We use spray foam adhesive and then we use long sips screws to attach to the trusses and secure the roof to the home.

I do not know if your tongue and groove is on top of or attached to the bottom of the glulam, but using this process provides you a little better alternative to foregoing the bottom fasteners.


Greg Freyermuth
915-256-7563, Phone
GregFreyermuth@elp.rr.com, E-Mail
rnortmanUser is Offline
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07/09/2008 8:50 PM  
Posted By recondite on 07/09/2008 8:14 PM
I'm trying to get someone who is experirnced in the actual application of OSB SIPs, to tell us how one places any fasteners on the bottom side of joins. 

This is a problem, and no one I have talked to has any solution except to omit those fasteners. 

The suggestion that one eliminate all joins is not useful. 

This appears to be an unmentionable secret.  Someone from SIPA, perhaps?

Stan



Wes gave you a very workable solution above -- use nail base panels.  These have an OSB skin on only one side, and bare foam on the other, and are designed to be splined together only on the OSB side (the outside), and then you fasten it to the T&G beneath it with long SIPs screws.  This page has construction details for one such type of panel: http://www.eaglepanelsystems.com/nailbase-insulation.html

cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/10/2008 7:02 AM  
Posted By wes on 07/09/2008 8:02 PM
Chris,
Why spend the money for full blown steel SIPS when the much more economical nail base panels will work very well? Steel sips are a nice product, but like anything, they are better for some things than others. In this case, with the glu-lams and 2" T&G in place, they are overkill and a waste of money.



For the reasons I listed, cheap isn't always the good choice

Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
DonaldsonUser is Offline
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07/11/2008 9:16 PM  
Why not spend the time to at least investigate the cost difference including the long term maintenance and see if the Steel Sips would be your best bet. We are going to use 53 foot ones on our 100 X 100 bld. to eliminate the problems described and to make the structure more hurricane/termite resistant.
cmkavalaUser is Offline
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07/12/2008 7:53 AM  
Posted By recondite on 07/09/2008 8:14 PM
I'm trying to get someone who is experirnced in the actual application of OSB SIPs, to tell us how one places any fasteners on the bottom side of joins. 

This is a problem, and no one I have talked to has any solution except to omit those fasteners. 

The suggestion that one eliminate all joins is not useful. 

This appears to be an unmentionable secret.  Someone from SIPA, perhaps?

Stan



Stan;

Steel sips have no spline fasteners at all and the other benefits that have been listed before on other threads are:


Although any SIP construction will save 50 – 60% in energy costs, are 3 times stronger than frame, and are more environmentally friendly. Steel is a better choice for the following reasons

 

Advantages of Steel SIPs vs.OSB

v  Steel will not warp, swell, twist, rot

v  Rain during construction do not affect materials in any way

v  No cranes needed for installation a steel SIPs are lighter than OSB

v  The underside of the roof panel automatically forms an attractive finished soffit overhang or exterior porch ceiling.

v  Joints are a T&G friction fit they do not require splines, mastic or fasteners greatly speeding installation time

v  Steel is more stable during manufacturing and panels are held to 1/16” tolerance

v  OSB is limited to 24ft. in length …Steel SIPs are available up to 53ft. in length, eliminating butt joints

v  Steel panels are manufactured on a continuous line making them available in square pre-cut lengths in  ¼ ” increments, but only charged to the nearest  ½ ft., OSB often rounds up to the nearest 2 ft. increment – making you pay for waste that gets thrown away

v  Higher ” R – Value denser foam provides a 4.25 R- value per inch of foam

v  No Termites … Impervious to termites and carpenter ants , foam core is borate treated

v  No foam grooving is required for window and door openings, after cutouts are made, openings are simply “picture framed” with 18.ga. steel channels

v  The steel skin is the “vapor barrier” on walls no additional covering is required before siding is applied

v  Eave overhangs can be 4 feet with no additional support

v  Sound Control – utilizing a 1-1/2” steel furring strip creates a dead air space for improved STC ratings.

v  Wiring – utilizing that same air space, wiring is much easier than fishing wire thru OSB and any future retrofit wiring is easier.

v  Will not support mold growth – painted galvalume steel skins are UDSA approved

v  Indoor air quality is better due to the tighter and cleaner construction material of the interior

v  Any steel building is safer from lightning strikes

v  “Monocoque construction” All connections and attachments are with screws having greater pullout strength than nailing

v  For economy or insulated utility buildings, steel SIPs have been left exposed as the finished siding and roofing.

v  Zurich Ins. In partnership with the Steel Framing Alliance offer reduced builders risk insurance premiums

v  In Florida and other hurricane prone regions Steel SIPs are 30% less to insure that block/truss and  53% less to insure than wood frame construction

 

www.southernsips.com

Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS
RatmanUser is Offline
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Posts:18




07/12/2008 10:14 PM  

Recondite,

 I have not had this problem in the past but have been giving it some thought on how I would try to solve the problem.. This is what I came up with... Let me know what you think!!!

Materials needed:
SIP's
glulam beams
adhesive
spray foam
5/8 x 3 splines (or whatever size is specified by your SIP manufacturer)
2" screws
Foam adhesive tape
2x8's or 2x10's

Proposed approach:
After placing and securing the glulam beams, place the 2x8's (or 10's) across the beams with the 8" (nom) side to act as a temporary stand off.
Fasten blocks on the SIPs to act as stops to ensure alignment with the walls and supports as needed.
Place the splines into the SIPs as you had intended per the manufacturer specs.
connect the SIP's as usual per the manufacturer specs.
With the SIP's now resting on the 2x8's you can use a 90% offset drill to drive the 2" screws per the manufacturers specs.
Once you have fastened the SIP's with the 2" screws you are now ready to remove the 2X's and fasted this SIPS to the glulam beams.
Knock out the 2x's being careful not to put too much stress on the joins. If you notice there is too much stress on the joints, you might want to place a few firring strips on the top side to act as bracing.

Obviously this is not a one man / person (must be PC ) job.

DISCLAIMER:::::  This is not a method that I have tried and I do not make any claims on the success of the results nor any responsibility for the results. Use at your own risk .....

PS.. After reading the earlier responses I thought you would like to get some thoughts where someone wasn't trying to sell you something.

DonaldsonUser is Offline
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Posts:92




07/13/2008 8:22 AM  

Suppose I have a roof, nearly flat, 50' by 24', for which it will be necessary to join several panels to cover the area.  The roof is supported by glulam beams, covered with 2" pine T&G decking before the sips are placed.  The panel sizes can be chosen such that the joins occur directly over the supporting beams on 4' or 6' centers, or not.  The T&G hides the bottom sides of the panels. 

Can someone explain to me how one places the screws on the bottom of a SIP assembly that will ultimately weigh a ton or more? 

What is standard proctice?

Stan


Stan,

If I understand the problem, from your description the beams are going to still be exposed and the 2" pine is on top of the beams presumably as the decor of the ceiling.  If this is so then your only option would be to place the sip panels directly onto the beams and then put your decking that is the ceiling, between the beams hiding the sip roof.  This allows you the ability to get at the underneath side of the Sip panels to apply the fasteners.

However if this is to be an almost flat roof, aren’t you opening yourself up to future problems with the OSB.  If water has any opportunity to sit, or if something gets up on the roof and allows the water to pool at all for any length of time it will eventually find a way to the under decking.  I live in FL the land of flat roofs and I don't know why they are so popular.  I haven't seen one that didn’t develop a leak at some point.  This would be another reason why steel sips are you best option.  But I am not trying to sell you anything as was assumed by a previous poster,  I don't work for any company, I am just an owner builder who has had the luxury of working with both types of sips and love the whole idea of building with them over anything conventional.


tlynchUser is Offline
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Posts:76




07/17/2008 2:02 PM  
What is the required roof load? Are you trying to span the full 24'? Are you unable to meet the span with using internal 2x splines? This would be the easiest by far.

A 12 1/4 inch sip panel with 2x splines can span 24' with the following deflection:

L/360 L/240 L/180
37 55 74
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