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Boontucky-girl
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Posts:94
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| 07/29/2008 3:32 PM |
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Hi,
We're planning on building a ranch home with walkout basement using 6 inch SIP on the main floor, and ICF in the basement. Due to the budget constraints we won't finish the main floor for a while. We can't got the SIP roof panel route because of cost, so we're going with regular truss. Since we won't have all of the electrical and such done, (hence we can't put our ceiling drywall and blow in insulation until much later), someone suggested that we spray-foam insulation on the underside of the roof sheathing so that we can still heat the house while we work on the upstairs, and get the house superinsulated at the same time. We plan on living in the finished basement. Any pointers if this is a good idea?
Also, our SIP's are quoted at an R-40 for 6" PUR core OSB, and we want to make sure that the heat doesn't escape through the roof!
Boontucky-girl
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Donaldson
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| 07/29/2008 7:16 PM |
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Boontucky,
I would suggest you re-think the idea of a conventional roof system as cheaper than steel sips.. You can still use ICF basement walls, OSB sip second and if you were to "balloon frame" the house you can use steel sips for the roof, then you would have all the insulation you need and have a much tighter and energy efficient house. You have to look harder at all the cost of the truss system including the heavy equipment, time and poorer insulation and a less tight envelope. Also the fact that going the way you are it will be difficult to accomplish your goal, ie, be able to live in the basement and work on the second floor over time without a great loss in the HVAC area.
If you are tight on budget then check out the possibility of using steel sips for your wall system including the basement as it would be cheaper than the ICF, basement. Check out the thread of "steel sips in South Carolina"
With balloon framing you would use a floor system like The deitrich "Trade Ready" steel joist system is capable of clear spanning 32 ft., size , ga. & spacing depends on span/load. This would have your house shell up in a minimal amount of time, second floor in so you can run all your basement trades and then allow you to add the second floor in time with out the concerns you are asking about. |
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Boontucky-girl
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Posts:94
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| 07/30/2008 9:22 AM |
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Donaldson,
Thank you so much for your information. That is my exact concern. We are building in the same lot as the old house so we don't have to move in to the basement, but the house is 1800s with so many problems I have some concerns with health issues (mainly mold that is probably growing in my attic and walls) so I want out of there asap. We can't afford to do the whole house in one shot, so we thought we could figure out a way to do the basement, then do the main floor over time.
My problem is that I am in the middle of Iowa and it seems that there are only OSB SIP suppliers nearby. I'd be building with cement board SIPs or Metal Sips if I could find a supplier to get a quote and compare. I don't like the OSB, but I prefer OSB Sips to conventional framing. And I really am not confortable with OSB SIP roof panels. Which is why I thought the suggestion of using spray foam to create an unvented attic was a good possibility.
I tried the metal sip thread, but I still didn't see any option of finding a metal sip for the roof to quote.
Is a OSB SIP roof panel ok? What would you have to do to make sure it is done right. Another problem that I have is that I can't find a local trade that has either experience nor willingness to do a SIP home, so my husband and I are going to do it ourselves. I could use some pointers as to what to do and what not to do.
I have so many questions, I find this site very helpful in getting closer to an answer that will give me peace of mind for our decisions.
Thanks for all your help,
Boontucky
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Donaldson
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| 07/30/2008 1:08 PM |
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With a name like Boontucky I thought you would be in Boonsville KY. I am sure that the middle of Iowa is nice and tranquil but you are right, most of the steel sip manufacturers are in the southeast.
If you do a conventional roof then yes make it a closed attic roof, sealed with at least 5 inches of iceneen foam. It is your next best option |
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Boontucky-girl
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| 07/31/2008 9:22 AM |
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Thank you Donaldson. Is there any special attention I need to pay? Do you know if you go business as usual (meaning pipe vents and chimneys, etc,) and just spray the foam around them? Will there be a problem with freezing and thawing on the roof in winter? and Ice dams? Thank you so much for your replies.
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Donaldson
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Posts:92
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| 07/31/2008 10:00 AM |
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I too moved from moldy home to a mold free home and noticed a huge difference health wise for the whole family. I have two boys with Asthma and they have gone off their meds since moving in to our home.
Most of building is common sense. When you don't know what to do then go ask someone who does. I helped or did all my trades except electrical. That is the one trade you can't fix if there is a screw up ie the house catches on fire. Have a certified electrician run the electrical. If you use OSB sips or Icfs use 1 1/2 in. furring strips and run your trades behind the dry wall, It will save much time and agony and labor and any electrician will work with it that way. Keep drainage pipes to no more that a 1/4 inch drop per foot, or what ever is code in your area. Don't be afraid to try and do this thing, I would tour high end homes and see that most times my tile or trim work was just as good as the next guy etc. You can do it. I spent a total of 205K in a home that is worth well over 500K. If it is too much house for you by the time you finish then sell it, make a good piece of change and do it again now that you would have the equity in hand to do it, Use good windows and doors for your area and check out Solar hot water if you have direct sunlightfor more than five hours a day. Even in winter it will at least pre heat your water and save you money. I can send you plans to build your own panels and system if you want. Building your own home is a challenge that has great reward at the end. |
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rnortman
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Posts:97
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| 07/31/2008 2:08 PM |
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Posted By Boontucky-girl on 07/31/2008 9:22 AM
Thank you Donaldson. Is there any special attention I need to pay? Do you know if you go business as usual (meaning pipe vents and chimneys, etc,) and just spray the foam around them? Will there be a problem with freezing and thawing on the roof in winter? and Ice dams? Thank you so much for your replies.
You do need to pay close attention to the details with this sort of roof. Especially in a cold climate, moisture can condense where you least expect it and get trapped. Then you get rot, freeze/thaw, etc. I heartily recommend Joe Lstiburek's books and website -- he is the king of moisture control. He has the skinny on ice dams and how to avoid them. Check out the website at buildingscience.com; there are a lot of free articles there. His builder's guide books have what's in the free articles plus some. He recently did a builder's guide for SIPs as well, which I recommend even if you're going to have a conventional roof on top of SIPs walls. (He discusses exactly that situation in the book.) But really, you should consider SIPs for the roof as well; run the numbers for doing a conventionally framed spray-foamed roof properly (as opposed to hastily, as it's usually done) and the cost may not come out all that different. With SIPs there is less complexity to deal with, but you do still need to pay attention to the details.
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Boontucky-girl
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Posts:94
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| 08/01/2008 8:37 AM |
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Donaldson,
I never had allergies in my life, but ever since we moved in to this old house, they have crept up and this year has been the worse. We've been here three years, and I think I've reached the limit!
The SIP company that we're contracting will have all of the electrical boxes and conduits already installed in the wall, so we're working on having the electrical designed (plus adding extra outlets against some peoples suggestion) I know you can never have enough outlets!
We will be running almost all of out plumbing through interior walls or under the floor where we can, and in those areas that we can't, we'll have SIP company place piping in there already. Same with the ICF basement.
The hard thing is that there is no code in my area out in the country. The only code I have to meet is setbacks, then after that I'm on my own, which is nice in a way as I can do whatever I want, but on the other hand it leaves me wondering if it's good enough/or designed properly.
We're quoting Andersen for our home windows, which are a bit more pricey than we hoped, but we've heard good things about them, and we're doing all casement windows, and we want to make sure we don't put cheap windows that will give us trouble later!
Solar hot water heater? Do you mean a solar powered hot water heater, or a heater that actually uses the sun hitting the tank to heat the water? We're going to put radiant heat and we'll be using an electric water heater for it since our propane prices doubled from last year. We would like in the future to run the WH with a solar panel, and if I get my way, eventually there will be a small wind turbine on our property so that I can be off the grid most of the time. If I can make it work, maybe someday I'll be tapping my river too to get electricity.
We're definitely in for it! We can do plumbing, carpeting, tiling, my brother in law does electrical. We will hire out the sheetrocking since I do want it to look nice, and we'll tackle the trim ourselves. My father in law does woodworking, so he's good with staining and stuff. It's getting exciting as things are starting to roll!
Thank you for your comments, they are really and inspiration and help me answer so many questions. |
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Boontucky-girl
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Posts:94
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| 08/01/2008 8:45 AM |
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Rnortman,
Thank you. I got the builder's guide to cold climate from the library, that I've begun to read. And moisture control is exactly my concern. I know we will need mechanical ventillation for the house, but I want to make sure it's done right, and I'm the type of person that doesn't feel comfortable with allowing the "experts" to do everything without me at least understanding the basics.
I'll have to see if I can get the SIP one through my library. I spoke with the SIP manufacturer, and one concern is that there's several valleys in our roof, and the only local guy who had done SIP roofs hated every single step of it, and I just can't trust to have a SIP roof done not right. The framer we have is a trim carpenter and some have complained that he's too picky and wants his lumber too straight (which is exactly what I like about him). So I am confident that my framed truss roof will be done right. It is the insulation part of it that I need to make sure gets done right too.
Thank you for your insight. It is very helpful. |
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rnortman
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Posts:97
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| 08/01/2008 10:34 AM |
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Posted By Boontucky-girl on 08/01/2008 8:37 AM
Solar hot water heater? Do you mean a solar powered hot water heater, or a heater that actually uses the sun hitting the tank to heat the water? We're going to put radiant heat and we'll be using an electric water heater for it since our propane prices doubled from last year. We would like in the future to run the WH with a solar panel, and if I get my way, eventually there will be a small wind turbine on our property so that I can be off the grid most of the time. If I can make it work, maybe someday I'll be tapping my river too to get electricity.
Solar hot water means that the sun heats the water directly. You put a panel up on the roof that works pretty much the same way a greenhouse works -- the sun comes in through a clear plastic panel which traps the heat inside. Water pipes zig-zag through the panel to pick up the heat. This can provide both household hot water and radiant heating water. For household water, you don't actually use the water that runs through the panel, because that generally has anti-freeze in it and just recirculates continuously. Instead, you use a water-to-water heat exchanger to heat up your drinking water using the hot water from the roof. Usually you then run it through another water heater that acts as a booster for when the solar system isn't getting the water hot enough. (Like when it's cloudy, or you're running the shower, dishwasher, and laundry at the same time.)
It is expensive and a little complicated to set up at first because of the need for heat exchangers, pump controllers, and booster heaters, but it pays back quickly in energy savings, especially if you use it for radiant heating. (Again, you want a booster heater or else a forced air furnace as a backup for when the roof isn't heating the water enough if you're going to rely on it as house heating in Iowa.) It is much more efficient than putting a solar electric panel up there and using that to power an electric water heater. Solar hot water systems are fairly common, and you can get the components off the shelf. There's a good chance somebody in your area has experience installing them already, but if you want to do it yourself be prepared to spend some time researching and learning.
In your climate, consider a heat recovery ventilator (HRV) to provide fresh air. In your climate, be wary of ventilation systems that pressurize the building, since you will have moist air inside, and pressurizing the building will tend to force moisture into the walls and roof, where it may condense if it's cold outside. Exhaust venilation is OK if you can't afford an HRV, because it creates a negative pressure, meaning you're pulling in dry outside air through whatever cracks there are, so there's little chance of condensation. (In a hot/humid climate, pressurizing the interior is a good idea, because the inside is generally drier than the outside.) Lstiburek talks about all this stuff in more detail.
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Donaldson
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Posts:92
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| 08/01/2008 11:13 AM |
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Posted By Boontucky-girl on 08/01/2008 8:37 AM
Donaldson,
1)I never had allergies in my life, but ever since we moved in to this old house..
2)plus adding extra outlets against some peoples suggestion) I know you can never have enough outlets!
and in those areas that we can't, we'll have SIP company place piping in there already. Same with the ICF basement.
3)Solar hot water heater? Do you mean a solar powered hot water heater, or a heater that actually uses the sun hitting the tank to heat the water?
4) sheetrocking since I do want it to look nice,
Boontucky-girl,
1) I know what you mean by allergies and moldy air. In our old house every
time the AC kicked on my wife would rub her nose and eyes as something
in the air was bothering her. The people that bought the house
replaced the entire systema and found where the flex had diped down
pools of condnesation formed then mold. the whole time the air was
moving in the pipes it was blowing over moldy water. This is another
rreason for a closed attic as the temp differences useally aren't
extreem enough to condense moisture.
In our new house we have very good circulation of air ie a supply and return in every room. Our house is soooo "clean" from dust etc, because we have no carpet, just hard wood floors and or tile, I have only one inch filters in the return air and I change them evey three months weather they need it or not. After three months I can sometimes still see through the filter.
2) The biggest reason you might want to re-consider having the plumbing and electrical inside the sip walls: One see how much it would save you to not have the company do this. Two adding an outlet or switch as you build is no problem, believe me I added multiple switches and outlets that wren't on my plans. Third having a water pipe inside the structural wall of your house, if it ever leaks would cause considerable damage (OSB and water don't mix), before you knew it was leaking and then you would have to cut into the structural wall to get at it and fix it. This is why using an 1 1/2 inch furring strip, with half inch drywall, makes it easy to use two inch shallow boxes and can be put any where and you can get at them or plumbing behind the drywall, by cutting away drywall only instead of having to cut into your sip panel. Also down the road if you want to add a cieling fan or another outlet in that hard to reach place that you will find out about after you move in, it makes it very easy to fish wire behind the dry wall. With the dry wall screwed directly to the panel you can't put anything else there without running outside the drywal in a chase or conduit of some sort that is seen.
3) Solar hot water: What I mean is you have a tank for storing the hot water, I bought two dented hot water heaters at Loews for half the price. The water is connected to a circulation pump that pushes the water up to a solar collecter that allows the water to heat up inside the panel. The water exchange is controlled by a controller that turns the pump on when the water gets to 160 degrees or what ever you set it at. When the cold or incoming water cools the temp down inside the solar panel then the pump shuts off and allows the new batch to heat up. I have 90 gal. of storage which is two hot water heaters hooked together. I have panels that came from a location in MO where they were rated at 4500 btu panels and here in fl they are 5000 BTU panels. This means that if left in the sun with out water cicling through them the interior temp has reached as high as 415 degrees. You can have them hooked to one of the tanks that is still hooked up to electricity so in the case of a week of cloud cover the regular HW tank witll still heat the water. but if your water is coming into the tank hotter than your temp setting then the hotwater heater never kicks on. An electric hot water tank is about 30 % of your electric bill. These panels are easy to build and the entire system costs about $600 to DIY, or you can buy a completed sustem for about $2500. Either way your payback is useally one to five years.
4) The smartest thing that I did was hire a crew to do the 350 sheets of drywall. For the money it is too hard of work and you need so many tools to make it happen fast.
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Boontucky-girl
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| 08/01/2008 11:15 AM |
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| Yes, a HRV is what I want, but not sure if it is what I'll get. I remember that once I found a website but didn't bookmark it that talked about that, not that you mention it. I think I was looking at composting toilets at the time. I'll see if I can find it, but it was something like buildingwithsolar.com or something like it. Thanks! |
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Donaldson
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| 08/01/2008 7:06 PM |
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P
It is expensive and a little complicated to set up at first because of the need for heat exchangers, pu and learning.
It really is not that expensive to make adn set up. If I atttached a copy of the system diagram successfuly you wil see that anyone with enough guts to build their own house can handle this pretty well. You can build your own solar panel getting most of the stuff needed from your local house builders dumpster. I can e-mail directions for construction of a solar collecter is anyone wants.
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rnortman
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| 08/01/2008 7:44 PM |
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That setup in the diagram doesn't include a heat exchanger. This means that your drinking water flows through the solar hot water heater. I have never set one up myself, but I've seen the setups, and my understanding is that it's a good idea to put antifreeze (I think just glycerin) in the water that goes up to the roof, at least in a cold climate. This is a closed-loop type of system, where the water just recirculates continuously. You get the heat out with a water-to-water heat exchanger, as I mentioned above. But even with that extra complexity, it's not so bad that you need an engineering degree to make it work. Add in hydronic heating and things get a little more complicated, if you want to use the solar hot water for heating up both the floor heat water and also the domestic hot water.
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rnortman
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rnortman
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| 08/01/2008 7:56 PM |
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Sorry to be making so many separate replies, but here's an even better page explaining the different ways to do it (open loop, closed loop, etc.):
http://www.homepower.com/basics/hotwater/
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Donaldson
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| 08/01/2008 8:09 PM |
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| The system described in my post is being used in Camdenton Mo. with 10,000 square feet of panels. It heats radiant heating water in a closed system with anti freeze. But it also heats the potable hot water for a training center that houses over 300 staff and students. The snow and cold do happen and sometimes with extreme long periods of of below 20 temps the system is drained and we go on fall back conventional system. but for almost 350 days of the year it is all solar hot water. |
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Donaldson
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| 08/02/2008 10:57 PM |
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| I failed to mention that this same system using 6 panels on one roof heats the hot water for our US HQ, a three story bld.. that has offices on the bottom floor and 45 apartments on the second and third floor, housing over 150 people. 4 panels heat the hot water on a separate 2 story bld that is a motel that has 18 guest rooms and two apartments. This design really puts out the hot water. |
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PanelCrafters
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| 08/03/2008 6:43 PM |
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Posted By Donaldson on 07/31/2008 10:00 AM
If you use OSB sips or Icfs use 1 1/2 in. furring strips and run your trades behind the dry wall, It will save much time and agony and labor and any electrician will work with it that way.
Agony? That's just plain silly. Agony? Hmmm, what is your agenda?
In reality, a decent electrician can rough wire an OSB SIP structure in less time than you'll waste installing all of those furring strips. And, no extra labor or material costs. In fact the manufacturer that we use, can custom locate the wire chases, and the box locations are prerouted. All that needs to be done is to pop it out with a hammer and fish the wire through. These are skills that all electricians possess.
I'd also like to hear from a few ICF guys. Is wiring an ICF structure 'Agony'? And do you guys waste labor & materials installing furring strips? I didn't think so.
Oh, but wait! Don't you have to do that if you use Tin SIPS? Hmmm. Agenda? I think I see the purpose of this post.
When people buy a premium product(and I consider SIPS & ICF's to be such a product), they shouldn't have to spend extra money just to wire them.
Attempting to create an advantage, to cover a liability, just doesn't work. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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cmkavala
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Posts:862
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| 08/03/2008 7:59 PM |
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Posted By PanelCrafters on 08/03/2008 6:43 PM
and fish the wire through. These are skills that all electricians possess.
Fish wires, that sounds easy as a remodeling job.
Please explain how easy it is to add a switch and/ or receptacle after the drywall is finished?
1-1/2" furring strips not only provide a clear electrical chase for future work, they provide for less sound transmision and additional insulation
Are you saying there is no upcharge to fish wires? and you use more wire because you can't change direction wherever you want - you have to follow the chases.
Heaven forbid if you want to add a recept. where there is not a chase, then what.....another remodel job? |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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