smartin
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| 08/07/2008 10:04 PM |
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| I would like to use sips for my roof, but I don't want to go vaulted. Are there any options for using sips with a flat 9' ceilings? |
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san diego sips
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| 08/07/2008 10:55 PM |
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| Yes, you can drop your ceiling. In the homes that I have built we usually drop the ceiling in the bathrooms and closets, but you can drop every ceiling in your home and have a ton of storage space just like a normal attic. Or you can barrel, coffer, or vault your ceilings in different rooms and still have plunty of room for storage and HVAC. |
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cmkavala
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| 08/08/2008 7:05 AM |
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| You can build a flat box with rafters above |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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ian_upton
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| 08/08/2008 2:23 PM |
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I was wondering the same thing last night. Does it make more sense to drop the ceiling and have 'conditioned' attic space, or do what Chris suggested?
Ian. |
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rnortman
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| 08/08/2008 2:48 PM |
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In my opinion, conditioned attic space adds a lot of practical value to a home. You can put your HVAC mechanicals there, and you can store stuff there. Conditioned storage space, to me, is worth far more than granite countertops and vaulted ceilings.
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smartin
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| 08/08/2008 4:49 PM |
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| If you did a flat box with rafters I asume you would have to use track lighting? Doesn't seem to make much sense to cut holes for recessed fixtures. |
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cmkavala
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| 08/08/2008 6:19 PM |
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Posted By smartin on 08/08/2008 4:49 PM
If you did a flat box with rafters I asume you would have to use track lighting? Doesn't seem to make much sense to cut holes for recessed fixtures. You can use recessed cans that are approved to be wrapped in insulation
I prefer to hang light gage steel framing from a pitched steel roof panel
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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smartin
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| 08/08/2008 11:32 PM |
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| What kind of increased heating load woul it be to go vaulted with dropped ceilings? |
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rnortman
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| 08/09/2008 7:10 AM |
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Posted By smartin on 08/08/2008 11:32 PM
What kind of increased heating load woul it be to go vaulted with dropped ceilings?
Hardly any. Heat loss/gain is driven by the surface area of the building envelope, not by conditioned space volume. Nevermind that the HVAC guys use volume as a rule of thumb. In fact, there are good reasons to always condition the entire volume inside the insulated shell, to avoid condensation and pressure differentials. So even if you drop the ceiling, the space above it should be conditioned. (I am assuming you have a SIP roof so that the whole thing is insulated and sealed.)
You might also consider a shallow roof pitch and no dropped ceiling. This is generally more efficient in materials and labor, as well as ongoing heating/cooling costs (due to reduced surface area). If you get a lot of snow, though, a low roof pitch needs extra structural support to handle the snow loads, and a steep pitch is probably better. You may also have an aesthetic preference for a steep roof, of course.
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cmkavala
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| 08/09/2008 10:00 AM |
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my own house is 2400 sq. ft., 4" steel SIP walls / 6" steel SIP roof - 4/12 roof pitch, full vaults in all rooms except kitchen, laundry, hall, closets & second bath - framed down to 10ft. with light gage steel.
HVAC system is Trane 13 SEER variable speed air handler - 2-1/2 ton
will maintain 30 degreee temperature difference in summer and cycle off in afternoons |
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
1-877-321-SIPS |
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Jelly
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| 08/09/2008 11:36 AM |
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| Chris, are you able to use the space above the light gauge steel framing for anything? Storage, mechanicals? Or is it just framed down for aesthetic reasons? |
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cmkavala
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| 08/09/2008 11:41 AM |
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Posted By Jelly on 08/09/2008 11:36 AM
Chris, are you able to use the space above the light gauge steel framing for anything? Storage, mechanicals? Or is it just framed down for aesthetic reasons? jelly;
it was used to distribute, HVAC ducts, but on my next house (in 2 years) I am going to build a similar version, with 6" x 18ga. framing over the kitchen area as it is plenty high enough for storage and the nice thing is it is conditioned storage so it very comfortable up there
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
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Donaldson
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| 08/09/2008 3:20 PM |
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| On my second story I lined all my halls and closets down the middle of the house and droped the ceiling in those spaces . This was to hide my HVAC ducts and also give me over 600 sq. Ft. of air conditioned storage space. It is very nice to have storage say for anything that can be damaged by heat and humnidity and not have to worry about it. |
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smartin
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| 08/09/2008 9:52 PM |
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| A little off topic, but has anyone here used roof sips for walls? I was thinking of pricing out r-40 polyurethane sips for both wall and roof. Or is that a little overkill? |
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Jelly
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| 08/09/2008 10:11 PM |
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I've got a conditioned attic planned under the steep gable portions of my plan, with room for storage, mechanicals, maybe even a woodshop, but that will be created with steel joists.
Chris, the storage area with 18 gauge steel studs over a kitchen. Could you walk on it? Where is the access? |
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rnortman
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| 08/09/2008 10:36 PM |
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Posted By smartin on 08/09/2008 9:52 PM
A little off topic, but has anyone here used roof sips for walls? I was thinking of pricing out r-40 polyurethane sips for both wall and roof. Or is that a little overkill?
What climate are you building in? R-value is more important in cold climates than in hot ones, because you tend to have high temperature differences between inside and outside for more of the year. In a very cold climate every little bit helps. In a warm or mixed climate, your money may be better spent elsewhere. Not that the extra insulation will hurt you in a warm climate -- it's just not going to give you as much of a return on your investment. Even in a cold climate, you may be better off spending the money on better windows, solar hot water, or geothermal heat pump. You have a limited budget, I assume. (If not, please drop me a line. I have a bridge and a few other things I'd like to sell you.) Spend your money where you'll get the greatest return. This depends on climate and house design.
A shorter answer to your question is: R-40 walls are not overkill, especially not in cold climates. More insulation is always better, especially in a very air-tight shell (such as you get with properly installed SIPs). Do it if you can afford it. An added benefit is that the thicker walls will be even stronger (I think -- somebody correct me if I'm wrong). But consider where your money might be better spent; if you haven't put solar hot water in the budget yet, start there. Then upgrade windows. Got lots of money to burn? Go geothermal.
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cmkavala
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| 08/10/2008 7:30 AM |
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Posted By Jelly on 08/09/2008 10:11 PM
I've got a conditioned attic planned under the steep gable portions of my plan, with room for storage, mechanicals, maybe even a woodshop, but that will be created with steel joists.
Chris, the storage area with 18 gauge steel studs over a kitchen. Could you walk on it? Where is the access? jelly
my current home has 6" -20 ga. joists @ 24" oc - spanning 10ft. across the kitchen, that I have walked across to add a phone line.
But, 6" x 18 ga. would span at leats 12ft. and with a plywood deck would be a great storage area.
I gain access thru an adjacent laundry room ceiling,
In my next home design I will have stairs an office loft over the garage and access to storage with an uninsulated door over the kitchen
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
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cmkavala
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| 08/10/2008 7:36 AM |
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Posted By smartin on 08/09/2008 9:52 PM
A little off topic, but has anyone here used roof sips for walls? I was thinking of pricing out r-40 polyurethane sips for both wall and roof. Or is that a little overkill?
there is no difference in our SIPs , but the thickness.
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Chris Kavala
chris@southernsips.com
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PanelCrafters
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| 08/10/2008 3:15 PM |
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Posted By smartin on 08/09/2008 9:52 PM
A little off topic, but has anyone here used roof sips for walls?
Posted By rnortman on 08/09/2008 10:36 PM
A shorter answer to your question is: R-40 walls are not overkill, especially not in cold climates. More insulation is always better, especially in a very air-tight shell (such as you get with properly installed SIPs)
I agree with rnortman. It's called Super Insulating. And, if you look at costs, it's fairly inexpensive when building. More expensive when retrofitting. Think about Energy Costs - They will continue to escalate.
And, yes I do have customers who have gone with R-40 walls, and they will be saving $$$ for the life of their structure. |
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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ReadyToRetire
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| 08/11/2008 5:50 PM |
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If I were building my own home in a retirement community, I'd assume that whoever eventually bought it from me would also not need additional space for young ones -- the attic would remain an attic. In any other situation, the ease of converting the conditioned attic into living space would, to me, justify what seems a minor cost difference for the full joists. But I'd not be building a 4,000 sf "home" with a jagged roofline; for that house the cost difference might become important.
Awhile back, another poster, Greg ?, agreed with PanelCrafters: The additional insulation is relatively inexpensive to add in the new consturction panels. I believe that Greg argued for a minimum of 6" panels.
Good luck,
Larry
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