Guzzy
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| 08/08/2008 11:41 AM |
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Hi folks I'm a newbie in the geo world. I would appreciate any insight considering this is a huge investment. I am currently getting bids on a pond loop system for my home. The bids are utilizing the Climatemaster Tranquility 27. I have a 2500 sq ft home with a 1680 sq ft basement. The pond is 210X95 and 20 ft deep in the center. I am getting bids using HDP pipe with 50% methyl alcohol. I have inqiured about using the SLIM JIM GEO PLATE. One contractor said the bid of $19000 maybe the same or $200 more. Is this about right?
How does the SLIM JIM affect the design? Is it as stable? Tempurature swing in the water the same at the same depth? I was told about a zip strip heat assist for very cold conditions. Is this used around 10-20 degree tempuratures? On the the cooling side if things. Is the geo system as good as an air conditioner or is it basically the same thing? When tempurature gets close to say 90plus does it need a cooling assist? Again I want to thank anyone who answers in advance because it sounds like its the best way to go considering propane is now $2.34 a gallon prepay near Marine City, Michigan
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engineer
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| 08/08/2008 12:38 PM |
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You are lucky to be able to get propane for $2.34. I just paid $3.73 in Florida.
You need a contractor with prior experience with pond loops in a similar climate. Water at very bottom of pond likely to be 40 Deg F or less in mid winter - may not suffice as a heat source. Heat exchanger with methanol might ice up, which might be OK if that is part of the design.
Regarding cooling, how hot is the pond right now? Would it be possible to measure its temperature at the 20' depth?
My totally-off-the-cuff guess is that the pond may be a bit small.
Has a good load calculation been done? |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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geodean
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| 08/08/2008 2:45 PM |
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A properly designed and installed pond loop will work just fine for you. Slim Jims do the same thing, they just cost more.
The zip strip you ask about is an electrical back up heat strip that goes in the duct work to give you extra heat when you need it.
Since the heat loads on your house will be greater than the cooling loads, the system will not have any problem cooling your house.
As engineer said, the most important part is getting a qualified installer. Make sure that you get references and check them.
There is not a problem with 40° degree water. My closed loop system gets down to 40° and works great. Most closed loops will get down to 40° some even go lower.
At 20000 sq feet I am thinking your pond will be big enough to heat your house.
At 20% solution of Methanol gives you freeze protection to 15°. You should never get close to that. |
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Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
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engineer
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| 08/08/2008 4:48 PM |
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| I defer to Dwayne on this. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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joe.ami
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Posts:392
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| 08/09/2008 9:50 PM |
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Rule of thumb in MI for pond loops is no less than 8' deep, so as long as you can maintain that the pond is fine. The sales pitch for Slim Jim is installer advantage; so go with whatever your installing contractor is comfortable with.
I have customers in mid MI who would like to know who gave you that propane price.
Good Luck,
Joe |
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senecarr
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| 08/10/2008 9:19 AM |
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Back in July I think I was quoted $2.22 per gallon from Amerigas delivered to Dexter, MI area if you did their pre-buy program.
My back of the envelope calculations have shown that if even if you have a 96% efficient furnace, compared to using baseboard electric heat from DTE, you'd pay less for your heat if propane reaches $2.50. And that's without getting their special rate on electric heating tied to a different meter.
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joe.ami
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| 08/10/2008 9:54 AM |
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Senecarr,
You've struck a point there...I tell all my customers with propane to go get an electric hot water tank because of that.
Thanks for the other info.
J |
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senecarr
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| 08/10/2008 10:07 AM |
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I've also been told by a few people that a lot of propane companies are now not letting people do the pre-buy. The want to charge for the higher price that's going to hit in the winter.
Honestly it seems like if electric prices remain relatively stable, propane can't sustain itself selling at $3 or above. Nearly everyone would look at installing baseboard heat at the point if they have any sense. |
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Guzzy
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| 08/10/2008 12:31 PM |
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When I first moved out to country 11 years ago 1st fill of 1000 gals was 59 cents a gallon and now prebuy at $2.34. My fear is if this continues at this pace in 11 years propane will reach $7 a gallon. At that rate $7000 to heat a home is crazy. Thats why I'm switching to Geothermal. I have Blue Flame with bought out Fosters of Richmond. But I called around from Ferrellgas, Harmon,Long's won't deliver this far south etc. They were all around the same price. The other aspect is the game the companies play with prebuy. If you fall short you buy at premium price with 150 gals minimum purchase. You are at their mercy. If you buy more than you use. and you don't have it delivered before your contract ends now your at the current price. It's a game I'm tired of and want prices more stable and just an all around more efficient system. By the research I've done I'm sold on it. It's just now finding the right installer with the experience and service that will complete the deal.
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joe.ami
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| 08/10/2008 12:39 PM |
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Guzzy, you really nailed it...Qualified installer, too many folks shop this so long to save the last $1,000 that they could have saved $2,000 in the 6 mos they spent deciding. Most good diggers are booked a month out in mid MI right now, so if you want the system in this fall get your 3 bids and as long as they are similar (avoiding the need for additional opinions), get it done.
Most folks experiences with geo have more to do with the installer than the brand or the price.
J |
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ptfd1819
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Posts:8
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| 08/11/2008 10:51 AM |
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i am currently installing a slim jim pond loop in my personal home, my question is can i run pvc sched 40 piping inside of my house rather than the HDPE
i want to run the pipes along the wall in my garage in order to get into the equipment room
i think i can more easily strap the rigid pvc to some quick strut than i could the HDPE also is would be less prone to damage via the kids
i would want to run the pvc into the pump panel
does any one see an issue with this? |
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Guzzy
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Posts:4
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| 08/11/2008 2:12 PM |
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Hello again,
My setback from pole at street to point of entry where new meter would be is 258 ft back from road. The DTE planner said because I am this distance back from road there is a voltage drop that may affect flickering of lights etc....when system initially starts. They would run 350 amp so house would have 200 amp and Geo have 150 amps. The other alternative is run 2 new poles along side of property and that would run about $6000. I there anyone out there who has installed or have in their home a setback of this distance without any issues? Any insight is greatly appreciated....
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joe.ami
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Posts:392
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| 08/11/2008 11:37 PM |
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Guzzy, 150 amps is likely not your usage what unit are you installing,what are the running amps, how many k coil? What folks don't experience in other regions is that your electric company sells gas and there fore does nothing to assist you in going geo. We want to make sure you have the advice of an experienced contractor before you spend 6K on new poles.
PTFD, you need to seek out an experienced contractor in your area, if you have questions about their advice please write us back.
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engineer
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Posts:585
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| 08/12/2008 12:06 AM |
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Running amps won't be a factor in flickering lights unless 10-15 kw heat strips are running and that should be relatively rare. Starting the unit's compressor does include a massive inrush current on the order of 6-10 times running amps. Whether that would cause an annoying voltage dip in a 350 Amp service 285 feet from transformer is a question possibly best put to a competent electrician rather than an HVAC contractor. The KVA rating of the transformer on the utility side factors into this as well, I'm fairly sure.
I'm an electrical engineer but cheerfully admit I'm a bit foggy on the practical aspects of wiring a home.
My utility was induced by my new 400 Amp service to upgrade the transformer. I didn't bother to tell them that I had substantially oversized the electric service and that the house has just a 3 ton heat pump. Peak KW has yet to exceed 12 according to their meter and daily kwh rarely exceeds 40.
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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joe.ami
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| 08/12/2008 12:20 AM |
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| Bingo; the advice of an experienced-electrical contractor. Unfortunately DTE has just gone through another "re-organization" which means skill may have been sacrificed for seniority. We have been struggling with them for months. Your geoinstaller, if he's worth his salt, has an electrician he's working with who can wade through this quagmire for you. |
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a0128958
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| 08/12/2008 10:12 AM |
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Posted By engineer on 08/12/2008 12:06 AM
... daily kwh rarely exceeds 40.
I'm impressed that you and your family are generally under 40 KWH daily, especially noting you're an all electric home.
Best regards,
Bill |
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engineer
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Posts:585
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| 08/12/2008 12:15 PM |
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We average 30-35 kwh / day with temps in low 90s
Unoccupied house base load (road flood light, well pump for 2 rentals, fridge and chest freezer, phantom loads) is 7 kwh / day.
10-12 hours / day of heat pump use (low stage) at an estimated 1.5 kw makes up much of the rest. Hot water only runs 1-2 kwh / day thanks to the desuper. It'll be interesting to track that as weather moderates this fall.
The one thing that'll really spike a particular day is multiple loads of laundry - dryer is electric.
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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Guzzy
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Posts:4
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| 08/12/2008 3:57 PM |
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The 2 systems I've been given quotes on are the Tranqulity Climatemaster TTV064AGC01JRKS and the Envisions by Waterfurnace NSV060A. The DTE planner did say they would upgrade the transformer on pole from I believe 2 KV to 5KV. Waiting to hear back from electricians and planner. The other aspect is there are only my wife and I that live here. We were figuring on having a family when house was built but that never happened. So our usage is not that much. I have switched most lights in house with CFL's in the rooms that are used th most. I don't anticipate a problem but wanted some of your opinions which I greatly appreciate. I see some of you measure your daily usage to have a better understanding of your demand. I will start this too being that it could help me in the future.
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joe.ami
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Posts:392
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| 08/13/2008 11:49 PM |
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| Guzzy, final thought; depending on usage, two people in the house do not necessarily get a good ROI on a hot water generator. Ask your contractors to show you that comparison if they are insisting on installing one. |
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