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repj
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Posts:1
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| 04/23/2005 5:54 PM |
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| I will be having a vacation house built one of these days. It will be in Maine and up on pilings. When it was designed I had no plan on using radiant heat. Now I am thinking that for my situation it is the only way to go. I checked with the engineer to see if the first floor was designed so that it could take the weight of a gypcrete system. He said it was not. I did not particularly want to have to hire him again, change the plans, etc., when I heard about Warmboard. It was suggested by the local buidling supply store. They will supply the panels at $199 a piece. OUCH! Even the $180/panel direct from Warmboard seems way steep to me. I wonder why no other place has come out with a similar system in which the radiant is part of the plywood subfloor. Does Warmboard have a patent on this kind of system? This is one of those situations where some competition is sorely needed! |
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 04/26/2005 2:21 PM |
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So many comments on Warmboard, some right, some a little off the mark.
To Gabe, Warmboard is plywood, feels like normal plywood to walk on and is not what I would call “soft”. It is true that all framed floors have a small amount of “give” to them, which comes from the small amount of deflection that joists naturally have. Because the joists are the source of the “give” it will always be more comfortable to walk on framed floors using Warmboard, than any concrete slab, no matter what you cover the Warmboard with.
To Doug: $640 Canadian dollars? No way no day. not even close. Call our Canadian rep, Stewart Jeanes at 403-287-7933 for the real cost.
To rdoor: For a given tubing spacing, air, and water temperature, heat flow is proportional to coefficient of conductivity times thickness. Cut to the chase, the 0.025” thick 1100 alloy aluminum plate on the top of Warmboard has almost identical overall conductivity to a 4” thick Portland cement slab. This means that heat flow (BTUH/sf) through each will be similar from similar supply water temperatures. Apart from construction details, the biggest performance related difference between a 4” slab and Warmboard is mass. Concrete and aluminum have similar specific heat (0.88 vs 0.9) so the difference in response time will be directly proportional to the difference in mass. The aluminum on warmboard weighs 0.3 pounds per foot, a 4” slab weighs 50 pounds per foot (not counting the sand and gravel beneath). That means that it will take at least 166 times as long to heat up or cool off a 4” concrete slab as Warmboard. Even if we are talking about a 1.5” thin slab on subfloor (which has less conductivity along with less mass), if Warmboard takes a half hour to heat up, a 1.5” slab will take about ten hours for the same temperature change. That means that whatever heat your room needs at 6 AM if it can be supplied by 6:30 AM with Warmboard, with a thin slab you will get that amount of heat by about 4 PM. This is why high mass radiant systems are so difficult to control, you rarely get the heat you want when you want it.
To repj: The cost of a radiant system cannot be determined by the cost of any single component. Different panels materials can cause significant differences in the cost of tubing, manifolds, controls, heating equipment, secondary construction costs and most importantly labor cost. Remember, labor is typically one of the most expensive parts of a system. Warmboard is a very unique product that saves money throughout the installation of your system. First, because we are both a structural subfloor and a radiant panel, remember to subtract the cost of the subfloor savings before comparing it to other panel costs. Second, Warmboard saves labor throughout the process, not only on the hydronic system itself, but on secondary framing and finish floor costs. Third, because we use such low water temperatures and have such fast response, you save money on hydronic components. Most contractors find that overall system cost is on a par with or even lower than thin slab systems when all costs are accounted for. If we knew how to make Warmboard cheaper, we would. Products that perform as well as Warmboard are not cheap to make. We cover each sheet with a thick plate of very high grade aluminum, stamp it in an expensive process to ensure excellent tube to plate contact, bond it using the best glue system, to a very high grade 1-1/8” sheet of seven layer doug fir plywood. The quality of Warmboard and its performance go hand in hand. At the end of the day, Warmboard delivers the highest levels of performance for an overall system cost that is on a par with panel technologies that simply do not perform as well.
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 04/27/2005 9:52 AM |
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everything you say doesn't change the fact that warmboard is incredibly expensive. also doesn't change the fact that competition would do some good. i'm sure you could write 50 paragraphs promoting your product but at $180 minimum per sheet (i believe that's $5.62 per square foot) it is expensive!
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 04/27/2005 4:31 PM |
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When you say “incredibly expensive” that begs the question: compared to what? Let’s look a real numbers.
Consider dpman above who bought a do-it-your self kit from Radiantmax, a low cost internet site for radiant supplies. What dpman describes is an above floor sandwich system. Let’s consider the average US new home which is 2400 sf. The Radiantmax system is an 8” on center system which means it is going to use (not counting leaders to and from loops) 3600 linear feet of tubing at 45¢/ft = $1620. It is going to use two sets of 6 loop manifolds. Radiantmax does not price these separately but another internet site, Radiantec, does at $349 each for a total of $698. Radiantmax emission plates cost $1.69/sf for 0.15” thickness plates. That totals $4056 for the aluminum. Dpman must have bought his plywood a little while ago because my local yard sells 5/8” CDX for $24.67 a sheet today, which is 77¢/sf for a total of $1,850 for a 2400sf home. All of this is nailed on top of a subfloor (typically 3/4”, but in better homes or homes that are installing hardwood 1-1/8”) that carpenters already installed as part of the structure and which is not part of the cost of radiant. This adds up to an overall cost for aluminum, added plywood, tubing and manifolds of $8,226, or a per square foot cost of $3.46/sf. There is no labor in this cost for: ripping plywood, piecing in bits of plywood around the turn areas and at edges of rooms, screwing and gluing down all these bits of plywood and stapling all of these plates to them. Nor is there a figure for all the screws, staples and panel adhesive necessary to fasten this all together. Plus somebody has to design this whole system and lay it out in the home. And if you are installing carpet on top of this system, add at least 60¢/sf foot for 3/8” CDX overlayment (at today’s $19.14/sheet pricing) which will not only bring the per square foot material cost up to $4.06/sf but will degrade performance. And this sandwich obviously raises the floor, changing door heights, kitchen cabinet heights and stairway details causing difficulties for other trades.
Warmboard for this size home costs $5.60 per square foot but it is more than a radiant panel. It is a 1-1/8” structural subfloor which has a real value of $1.40 at today’s plywood pricing. As just a radiant panel, therefore, the comparable cost is $4.20/sf for a total in our 2400 sf home of $10,080. It is a twelve inch on center system which outperforms an 8” sandwich system because we use better aluminum (1100 alloy), thicker aluminum (0.25”), and because the “U” shaped grooves are precise in shape and tolerance and therefore provide better tube contact. This means that our example home uses 2400 linear feet tubing costing $1,080. It will use two sets of 4 loop manifolds costing $498. Of course there is no separate aluminum or plywood cost, no labor to cut or screw down numerous plywood pieces or to staple down numerous aluminum plates. That means that for the 2400 sf home, material cost of Warmboard, tubing and manifolds is $12,156 for a per square foot cost of $5.06/sf. The labor to install it is already accounted for in the ordinary carpentry costs of the home. Complete layout design services are included in the cost of the panel so that is not an added cost. And if you are installing carpeting, the precise fit of our tubing and panels means that no overlayment is necessary.
The difference in cost of our allegedly “incredibly expensive” Warmboard is $1.60/sf. Anybody who does not think that there is over $2/sf of labor savings available by avoiding all of the complications of a sandwich system has not been around construction much. For a do-it-yourselfer building a 2400 sf home, who counts the value of their labor as zero, the $3840 theoretical savings may be worth more than the getting the best in performance. But this is false economy for anyone who values their own labor or has to pay for it.
Thousands of happy Warmboard customers bought our product for its superior performance but were pleasantly surprised to find that the overall system cost was less than most alternatives they were considering. |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 04/28/2005 9:10 PM |
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No one has commented on my suggestion of Easy Floor by the Florheat Co. It can be put down after everything else is done and is as easy as laying aluminum sheeting on the floor, snapping the plastic grills together, putting the aluminum conductors in and laying the PEX tubing. This much without the manifolds, etc., will cost me $3.35/sf. I will have to put backer board down and then my tile floor on that. Hasn't anyone any experience with Easy Floor?
argee
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 05/02/2005 12:49 AM |
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Argee,
I would be interested in anything you learn on Easy Floor. I will be contacting them tomorrow. The increased floor height is of little concern, as we are redoing floor heights anyways on our renovation - and a new stairway, door heights, etc., are happening regardless.
In the area with existing subfloor, this seems superior to Warmboard, as there is no redundant subfloor. I wonder when Warmboard will start selling a non-engineered subfloor board.
However, in the area where we need new subfloor I am weighing Easy Floor vs. Warmboard. Obviously the $3.44 per sq. ft. Easy Floor would need to be raised for the added subflooring in those areas. Though warmboard has better aluminum, the Easy Floor has the unique air break and aluminum reflective layer that much better minimizes downward heat loss where you may not want it, i.e, within the joists between floor and ceiling. I will be curious to try to get info to compare apples to apples in terms of the BTU output of these systems at a given water temperature.
It's funny, but I just saw that I posted about radiant flooring back on Page 1 in 2003, and finally, after builders falling through, we are building within 1.5 mos. I can't believe we still don't have our plans finalized. I met with Radiant Floor Company of VT and Radiantec this weekend, and got two very differents systems proposed.
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OKBlocker
Registered Users
Posts:635
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| 05/02/2005 5:13 PM |
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To Argee and Bodi:
Easy floor’s conductive plates are only marginally conductive because they use thin gauge galvanized steel plates not aluminum. As a material, aluminum is approximately five times as conductive as steel. Warmboard’s aluminum is not only much more conductive as a material, it is considerably thicker as well, further enhancing conductivity. The easy floor thin gauge steel plates cover approximately one half of the floor area, Warmboard covers the entire floor for significantly higher output and more even heat. You can use any floor covering with Warmboard. The cement board of easy floor seems to accommodate mostly tile. Certainly, carpet tack strips cannot be nailed to it nor can hardwood. I’d be willing to bet that by the time that labor is factored in, including issues related to attaching floor coverings and accommodating the non-trivial thickness of this system the installed cost will be greater for the easy floor system. Leaving aside installation issues, Warmboard simply performs better. |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 05/13/2005 4:29 PM |
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This is directed to the Warmboard rep.
We are building in New Hampshire and seriously considering the use of Warmboard, and have some questions.
Can a high output water heater be used in place of a boiler?
The 1 1/2 story house will be constructed at the local technical high school with the intention of splitting it in half length wise and loading it on a transporter and then re-assembling it on site. Will the splitting of the house will pose problems with the heating system?
The basement will be equal to in size to the house, and housing a 2 car garage plus 3 heated rooms. How would Warmboard be applied to concrete floors?
The main floor of the house is 28 x 52 = 1456 sq ft., under house garage is 28 x 24, plus the 3 heated workrooms totaling 28 x 28, the second floor will house 2 bedrooms & a bath in 500 sq ft. which will be finished about 2 years after the house is built. We would like to know what the cost would be for each floor...and can the 2nd floor Warmboard be easily added to the heating system at a later date?
Thanks
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Terry Alsberg
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 05/18/2005 2:54 PM |
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| Your questions require a more detailed dialogue than can be efficient on a bulletin board such as this one. Gretchen Beck is our New England regional manager and she can be reached directly at 401-398-2160. She has a lot of experience with the sort of modular project you are contemplating. |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 05/19/2005 11:02 AM |
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What is the typical cost per sq foot of Warm Board?
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 05/20/2005 9:47 PM |
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I have already tried contacting Gretchen. I left her a voice mail over a week ago with no response, that's why I felt you might help.
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 09/05/2005 1:33 AM |
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| I am using warm board in my new house and will be installing the tubing my self. My Question is how to start and end my tubing loops through the floor back to the manifolds? What is the best way to support and insulate this tubing, that is referred to as the buried portion of tubing, according to the warm board tubing layout sheet. |
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Terry Alsberg
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 09/09/2005 7:42 PM |
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| Yes, the point at which the tubing leader passes from the top side of the panel to the joist side of the panel is called a "bury point". This is covered quite clearly on our installation video and in detailed drawings supplied with each order. Every order is supplied with an installation kit which includes this video. If the installation kit was somehow did not get to you or the video was misplaced, please contact us at 877-338-5493 and ask for technical services. They will answer all of your questions in greater detail than is possible here and can quickly replace the video if that is necessary. |
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Craig P
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 09/23/2005 5:50 PM |
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Terry,
You have reffered Jack to your technical services for a replacement video if necessary. What about posting the video so we can all see it?
I've decided on radiant heating and am considering Warmboard for a house being built in the next year. I was quoted $269 in Toronto, Canada from your rep up here. This is a 25% premium (allowing for a generous exchange rate) over the current rates posted by members from the US. Why the premium in Canada?
I also don't see joist spacing addressed on your site? Would this allow for larger joist spacing eg 24" when using engineered joists?
Craig.
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 10/04/2005 8:27 PM |
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Sometimes I get a little frustrated at the postings from people about the use of steel, aluminum or such as heat transfer plates. Here is the raw facts.
The pipe is the limiting factor 3.4 Btu/degreef/sqr inch/hr Like it or not, this is it.....period. The limiting factor of the design of heat transfer is the pipe. However, the area of impact, for sucessfully transfering heat to the floor increases, and heat transfer plates tend to make a floor more responsive, not better, not higher output or other crap people throw at you. Key in on your needs. Most home designs need about 24 Btu/hr of output per square foot, way less than older homes, so the need for advanced products is pretty moot.
Yes, we manufacture a heat transfer plate, and my reccomendations are simple staple up with insulation on the underside of the floor. Works well, is responsive and very even in temperature.
Your choice though.
Mark Ross
www.arit.com |
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Terry Alsberg
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 10/05/2005 6:12 PM |
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To Mark,
First, I don’t know where your numbers come from (3.4 Btu/F?/sqr. inch/hr). To the best of my knowledge the coefficient of conductivity of PEX is 2.7BTUH/F?/sqr. foot. If we assume a 1/16” tubing wall and express the coefficient per square inch we come up with 0.3BTUH/F?/sqr. inch. If we assume that your numbers are correct and we use 1/2” tubing (0.625 o.d.) and assume that one half of the circumference contacts a conductive plate, that works out to approximately one inch of transfer area per lineal inch of tubing or 12 square inches of contact for each lineal foot
If we apply your numbers to Warmboard which has one lineal foot of tubing for each square foot, as little as a 1? ?T between inside and outside of the tubing transfers 40.8 BTUH/sf far more than any radiant system ever needs to or can transfer. If my numbers are correct your case becomes a little better but still untenable. A 10? ?T would produce 36 BTUH/sf, still a very high number.
In other words, you are simply wrong. It turns out that tubing is not the weak link as you suggest. By the way, this explains why we use PEX tubing in radiant systems instead of copper tubing. The copper would buy you nothing because PEX is capable of such high transfer rates even though it is significantly less conductive.
Lastly, if you are right that plateless staple up works just fine, then virtually everybody else in the industry is wrong. I would encourage anyone considering plateless staple or for that matter, staple up in general to consider the article by John Siegenthaler found at the link below.
http://www.pmmag.com/CDA/ArticleInformation/features/BNP__Features__Item/0,2379,124062,00.html
To Craig,
Warmboard is rated for 24” spans. Go to our website or follow this link:
http://www.warmboard.com/downloads/WarmboardICCReport.pdf
To get our ICC-ES report |
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jugheadny
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 10/12/2005 2:32 PM |
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| As anyone ever compare warmboard to thermalboard? I'm in the process of remodeling a room that is about 300 sf, and was considering installing radiant heat. The easiest solution would be to do a staple up, but i feel that its a waste in the long run. It would save on initial install cost but running it would cost more, due to higher water temp, etc. I like the idea of warmboard, but the room already has a subfloor. The question is use a system like thermalboard or rip up the subfloor and put warmboard down? Any sugestions would greatly be appreciated. |
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zarquon5
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 10/13/2005 3:37 AM |
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I have been reading this thread with interest, but I have an
old house with existing subfloors, so I am looking for an
alternative to warmboard. One product I've ran across is
InfloorBoard, which looks similar to warmboard, but lays
on top of the existing subfloor. It also looks like it
might be cheaper to make, as they have two types of panels,
one for the straight-aways, and one for the curved ends,
and relatively easy to install. (See pictures at http://www.infloor.com/products/infloorboard.htm)
Perhaps we have a competitor for warmboard? :-)
However, I can't find a price, nor any discussion of it.
How new is it? Has anyone had any experience with it?
How does it compare to other systems? How much per sq ft?
(etc. etc.)
(I also would like to know people's opinions on which
is the best price:performance radiant solution for a room
with an existing plywood subfloor?)
Thanks in advance. |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 10/13/2005 11:14 AM |
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That infloor system looks like thermalboard system. [url]http://www.thermalboard.info/[/url] Wonder if its the samething. Well it must be they have the same guy installing it in the pictures.
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zarquon5
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 10/13/2005 3:01 PM |
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yeah, it appears to be the same product; the specs are identical, so I suspect infloor is a reseller. :-( (I was hoping it was less expensive... oh well.)
FTR: I'd also like to see more comments/comparisons re: easyfloor from FlorHeat.
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