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humestead
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 10/15/2005 6:36 AM |
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I am looking for a radiant product that I can put right down on basement slab.
Appears the thermal products like EasyFloor system from Florheat Co., and/or the Thermalboard/InfloorBoard (I agree, these are the same product) is the way to go in this situation.
I'd like to hear from anyone who has used these products.
I have not compared the price of these to Warmboard, but I have to think it's less expensive, and considering this is a slab job I do not need the structural support provided by Warmboard.
As a side note: I did install Warmboard as the sublfoor in an addition a few years ago and was very impressed with the product and the heating. Expensive, yes; but easy, quick, and efficient. For anyone planning on make his own I gotta hand it to them and would like to know where they get that much "free" time??
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gipper65
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 11/05/2005 7:13 PM |
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I am also thinking of using thermalboard/infloorboard.
My problem is I am having a problem getting the original reseller I contacted to get back to me with designs and quote. I am in Canada but can't find a Canadian reseller. Apparently the stuff is made in Canada because the US reseller said that he could drop ship from the distributer to save custome clearance duty etc.
Originaly it didn't bother me that they weren't getting back (I wasn't ready) now I am ready it would be nice to either find a dealer to get back to me or find some one in canada so I can order all the equipment.
I looked at warmboard but I am installing on a concrete slab so I think that is out als based on the costs quote in this thread I think it is a bit cost prohibitive.
I also looked at quik trak but don't know if it can be installed on a slab.
Neeed to start looking at Florheat.
Promised the wife the basement would be finished by Christmas [:)] |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 01/02/2006 11:26 AM |
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Has anyone compared Warmboard to
1) Zurn Thermal Track or
2) Viega Climate Panel System
Are there any other panel systems that would also be worth comparing to? |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 01/16/2006 3:40 PM |
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| I will be building an new home later this year and will probably do some sort of radiant floor system. Last week I spoke with a "local" rep for Warmboard in NY state and was told the price with out delivery and tax would be between $12-$15 PER SF. I could pick it up if I wanted to save some $$. At $15 per sf with s/h thats $480. Now thats expensive. I am now looking at a system called Ultrafin that runs the pex tube under the floor about 3" below the sub floor and has aluminum fins installed on it to radiate the heat better. It is then insulated underneith between the joists as other systems are. Any comments on this or the Ultrafin system would be appreciated. |
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Terry Alsberg
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 01/17/2006 4:17 PM |
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I don’t know who quoted you that price but it bears no relation to actual pricing. Depending on quantity, Warmboard costs between about $5.28 and $6.21 per square foot. It is a very thick and strong structural subfloor as well, which by itself is worth about $1.35 per square foot (depending on the local cost of subfloor).
Therefore, for those who would be applying it to floor joists, that means that the radiant function by itself costs you about four bucks or so per square foot and because that radiant function is part of the structural subfloor installation cost you would already be paying for in any framed floor, you will save about two bucks per square foot labor cost compared to overlay panels such as Thermalboard/Infloorboard which must be separately installed.
There is no comparison in performance. The aluminum in Warmboard is approximately eight times as thick as in the Thermalboard product. That aluminum makes excellent contact with the tubing in Warmboard (essential to performance) because the aluminum is continuous across the surface and into the channels. With Thermalboard, because the aluminum does not go all the way into the grooves, the tubing makes only the most minimal contact with the aluminum. All you need to do is glance at a sample of Warmboard compared to a Thermalboard sample and you will instantly know why Thermalboard is so cheap to make. Thermalboard is an attempt at a cheap knock off of Warmboard that unfortunately is not so cheap once you consider the cost of installation, not to mention all the extra tubing and manifolds (hidden extra cost) that it requires.
Lastly, to the best of my knowledge, Thermalboard does not recommend installation over concrete (for a variety of reasons beyond the scope of this reply). Although it is not the usual method of using our product, lots of Warmboard has been fastened to concrete quite successfully (be sure to follow our recommendations). |
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barqs27
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 01/17/2006 4:48 PM |
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| Is Warmboard just using Hydronics or do they do electrical? Because from what I have been told and what I have been reading Hydronics should only be used in bigger projects. I am just a home owner trying to put radiant heating in my floors. I saw a company called warmzone, [URL]http://www.warmzone.com[/URL] put in one of these system this weekend on the Bob Vila show. I talked to one of there reps on Monday and they have put an electric system togethor for me. I am still reading up but I am prettys ure I am going to go with it at this point. |
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rboarman
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 01/19/2006 9:11 PM |
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Hello,
This thread is very informative and timely. I just got off the phone with a Warmboard rep. The current price is $5.30 to $6.21 per sf depending on the size of the project.
For my project of 3000 sf, I would need 103 panels at $179 a panel. Throw in shipping of $650 and tax of $1500 which brings the total to $20,608 not including any labor, manifold, boiler and assorted parts.
On to my questions. First off, my project is a remodel and I’d rather not lose the 1”+ headroom with my barely 8’ tall ceilings. Does this mean that I need to cut out and remove all of the existing plywood sub-floor? What do I do where the new Warmboard panels meet up with the cuts that I would need to make to remove the old floor (along the walls)? Is it generally recommended to lay the boards over the existing sub-floor?
Lastly, is using a high-output water heater adequate in California or is a boiler needed? What are the pros and cons?
Thank you in advance.
Rick
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 01/20/2006 3:23 PM |
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rboarman, look into the warmzone stuff mentioned above. the warmboard, from what I've learned, is designed to replace the subfloor, whereas the warmzone is applied on top of the subfloor. If you can handle the increased labor expense, replacing the existing subfloor with warmboard may be the solution (i.e. better overall headroom).
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dsmith
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 01/21/2006 11:08 PM |
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I am in the process of getting estimates to build my 5200 sq ft log home. I have looked into warmboard and am willing to pay the cost, but it looks like a system from Radiantec will cost me about $10,000 less. Does anyone have any experience with Radiantec. Besides getting a more responsive system with Warmboard, would I notice any significant difference between the two systems in terms of comfort?
Thanks,
Dave |
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Terry Alsberg
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 01/23/2006 4:14 PM |
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There may be a $10,000 difference in material cost but I doubt that there is much of a difference once labor, including finish flooring installation cost, is factored in. Some Radiantec tubing does work with Warmboard so it may be possible to have some of their material savings along with the labor efficiencies of Warmboard.
It is difficult to know from your post which Radiantec system you are quoting but I will assume you are referring to their staple up system. If so, the labor cost differences can easily be $2/sf which means the two systems would be quite similar once total installed cost is factored in. Beyond that, staple up and Warmboard are at the opposite poles of performance. Warmboard gets high output from very low water temperatures. Staple up gets low output from very high water temps. This means substantial energy cost savings year after year. If you are contemplating using hardwood or carpet (even area rugs) Warmboard gives you virtually unlimited options where staple up can be quite limiting.
The reason radiant heat is typically chosen is for increased comfort and energy savings. At the end of the day, all radiant systems carry a premium price tag but not all radiant systems perform the same. Warmboard delivers both the highest comfort (namely fast accurate temperature control and very even floor temperatures), greatest choice of floor coverings, reserves of performance that can overcome extremes cold snaps (Warmboard is working at the South Pole) and because of its low water temperatures, the best possible energy savings. |
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dsmith
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 01/24/2006 12:38 PM |
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Terry,
Thanks for you input. It was very helpful
Dave |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 01/26/2006 5:30 PM |
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Interesting comments by all. I am building 3500 sq. foot log home in northern NH and am contemplating useing warmboard. A couple of issues:
1)will it maintain a 65-70 degree under extreme cold (i.e. -20 degrees)?
2)my wife wants natural 6-9 inch hardwood floors. I've heard some problems w/ this flooring (i.e. cupping, warping etc.)
thanks!
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rzaroff
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 02/19/2006 12:40 PM |
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This message is for Terry.
Terry ,
I have recently placed an oreder for warmboard for a 7000 square foot home and am excited to use the product. I actually carry it around (the sample) and show people.
Both my contractor and framer tried to disuade me from using the product because of the costs involved. Ultimately I decided it is my money and my house and it is what I want. I also have taken into account that it is not going to cost me much more to install than a conventional heat system in the end with all factors being taken into account.
I do have some questions though.
1. I am using geo-thermal for air conditioning, will the water that is produced by this system be warm enough to heat the use? The majority of the flooring is going to be hardwood and some carpet in the bedrooms.
2. In an old post you had said that the major benefit of warmboard was its ability to heat quickly and compared the time to heat a slab 4 inches thick to warmbaord was 10 hours vs. 30 minutes. If I am to put 1.5 inches of cement over the warboard in an area how does that work as far as transfer times. The mudroom and downstairs bath are going to have a polished cement floor that is going to be at least 1.5 inches thick if not more and the subfloor will be warmboard. The only question in addition is that I was going to use one sill plate verse two in that area to drop it down to put additonal mud, is this not going to be recommended?
3. 16 inch on center floor system is OK for install , correct?
4. Is there any benefit to putting aluminum in the routed out turns or does the rest of the plate compensate?
Thank you
Reed
p.s. all of your staff is fantastic to work with. |
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sonso
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 02/23/2006 6:13 PM |
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So, I'm sold on the idea of the Warmboard (thanks Rob!), and don't mind the ~$6 per square foot cost. But I am curious what everyone's experience has been in terms of the *additional* cost to install the radiant system. I hear installers quoting ranges of $20-25 per square foot, installed which is insane, and would never be economical no matter what fuel costs. I was told that Warmboard was less labor intensive for installation, and made it so much easier for the installer (since it's pre-planned, pre-cut). So what kind of markup are we looking at here? I'm curious whether the plumber couldn't hook up the system (tubing, boiler, manifolds, etc.), and just have a very careful carpenter lay the Warmboard, and save lots of $.
Thoughts?
So'n'so |
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:336
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| 02/23/2006 9:01 PM |
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I believe the standard rap Warmboard says is to expect a Warmboard radiant system to cost between $12-$15/sq ft installed.
However, Your mileage may vary, of course.
there are lots of ways to save bucks. you don't need to be a plumber to pound pipe into a warmboard groove, for example. You DO, however, have to be a professional to install a boiler. lots of wiggle room between those two things though!
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 03/16/2006 6:31 PM |
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To the NH builder.
All radiant systems have the same limitation on finish floor surface temperature. It is not recommended that you exceed 85 degree surface temps. It is hard to imagine conditions under which Warmboard cannot drive your finish floor surface temp to that 85 degree limit. We heat the US research station at Mc Murdo sound (Antarctica) with Warmboard so New Hampshire in and of itself does not present a problem. But then the research station is very well insulated. At 85 degree surface temp with a 70 degree desired air temp, a radiant panel, regardless of type, will deliver 30 BTU’s per hour per square foot. Most modern well insulated homes have heat loss in the 15-25 BTU per hour per square foot range. If you are unsure of your heat loss, contact NRT.Rob or other qualified heating engineer to have a heat loss analysis done. Regarding wide plank flooring, yes it can work with Warmboard but there are precautions that need to be paid attention too. Contact Paul Izenstark at 877-338-5493 x103 to discuss the best way to proceed.
To rzaroff:
1) One of Warmboard’s great performance advantages is that it works on some of the lowest supply water temps in the business. This makes it a good match for ground source geothermal which usually is happiest making water below 120 degrees.
2) While I cannot precisely predict reaction times because that is affected by supply water temps, heat load and the mass of materials attached to Warmboard, even with a polished concrete slab on top of Warmboard, the reaction time will be much improved over most other systems.
3) 16” on center is fine as is 24”.
4) There is no need to worry about the relatively small areas at the custom routes where the tube makes poor contact with the aluminum. These areas are a very small percentage of the overall area and will have little effect on performance. There are low performance knock off imitators of Warmboard that have little or no aluminum and little or no tube contact with that aluminum. They work to some degree because a bare tube itself will give off some heat. Plateless staple up works to some degree as well. The 1-2% of your floor area will work no less well than those other systems while 98-99% of your floor will perform like a Ferrari .... I mean Warmboard.
To Sonso:
Speaking of Ferrari’s, I’ve gotten myself in some trouble in the past when I have questioned radiant systems costing $20-$25/sf. Warmboard is only a tiny fraction of that cost as are most of the other materials in the system. This is why I always try to focus our customers on the need to control labor cost. Most ot the contractors charging these kind of costs are honest enough, but they don’t know how to “keep it simple stupid”. During Radiant’s infancy most installations went in to very high end, cost is no object homes. Loop layouts were excessively elaborate as were the boiler room components and control systems. I’ve seen more than a few homeowners confront the cost of systems with 10 or more zones, each elaborately controlled by high end “smart controls”, exotic boilers etc. Then they throw up their hands from sticker shock and put in a single zone scorched air systems at $5/sf and tolerate the loss of comfort for the rest of their lives in the home.
There is a middle ground. We’ve seen lots of completed radiant systems that incorporate Warmboard that cost in the $7-$9 dollar range but they are relatively simple systems of perhaps 3 or 4 zones, controlled by $40 thermostats, with lower cost boilers or water heaters (under $2000) as heat sources. And they are often installed by the same plumber who is doing the rest of the plumbing in the house. Any journey man plumber who has hydronic experience with baseboard or wall radiators can do the work. If they cannot do the design part, well that is where services such as NRT.Rob and others provide can save you a lot of money. Radiant need not break the bank. |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 03/27/2006 5:52 PM |
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Anyone thinking of using warmboard during the winter should consider the difference in thermal expansion rates for plywood and aluminum. I installed warmboard during a cold winter in Pennsylvania and had nothing but trouble. I assume that the product was laminated in a shop with temperatures in the 70s. When the warmboard was installed the temperature was around 15 degrees. Every panel had a pronounced bow that made instalation a very frustrating time consuming project. I had figured the winter in my bid cost but had no way of knowing that the thermal contraction of the top skin of aluminum,in cold weather, would exist and cause so much problem. In order to nail the bowed warm board we had to have enough people stand on the board to overcome,read stretch, the aluminum skin. When the following row was installed everyone that could fit on the warmboard had to stand on the board and then it had to be beat into place with everyone's weight on the panel and there was still a bow to fight. We finally used a flame thrower to heat the aluminum which quickly flattened the panel. What happens with the flooring system with those kind of stresses over time? A cabin built in the summer and left unheated in the winter or worse, heated for a few days every couple of weeks would be having tremendous lateral forces applied each time.
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dkane
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 04/14/2006 12:36 PM |
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I'm learning alot here, reading this thread. And Terry, you make a good case for Warmboard. I'm currently considering it in the house I'm finally building for myself.
But I do have to correct you on something. You've mentioned the use of Warmboard at McMurdo Station in Antarctica in a couple of your postings recently. The way you phrase it, it sounds like the National Science Foundation chose to use Warmboard exclusively. That's a bit off the mark. While I'm not a rep of NSF, I have worked as a carpenter on the Ice since 1997 for a total of 40 months at all three year-round US stations, McMurdo being one of them. While Warmboard is in use in McMurdo, it is a HUGE stretch to say that it is "heating the research station". McMurdo has many, many buildings and Warmboard is in use in one part of one of those buildings; the galley of Bldg 155. And the galley (oops, it's now called The Dining Facility) is only about one quarter of that building. The other 3/4 of Bldg 155 is heated with air handlers blowing air across glycol heating loops. Most of the buildings on station are heated that way, though there are also forced air systems (such as in the carpentry shop), as well as wall radiators.
So, it's an exaggeration to say that Warmboard is heating McMurdo. Parenthetically, it's also a mistake to assume that the buildings are well insulated. Some are, most aren't. Many of the buildings were built by the SeaBees back in the '60s and '70s. Nuff said. |
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thmehr
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 04/24/2006 2:28 AM |
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Hi
I came up with a cheap alternative to warm board. I would like you input.
take 1 1/4 plywood subfloor and route you own channels. Go to you local newspaper and purchase some aluminum printing plates and take this to a machine shop to have them bend a sharp edge (l shaped) that would the track or channel. The bottom of the channel will not have any metal, but the two sides would. I was thinking about using ployurathan (sp) glue or just chauk.
Does any see any issues besides time.
Thanks
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NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:336
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| 04/24/2006 4:43 PM |
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If you're trying to save money, sandwiches would be a lot easier than that. If you want the performance, that method won't give it to you. Aluminum to pipe contact is important to the heat transfer power so sacrificing the tubing channel will hit you pretty good.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
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-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
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