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onlyinamerica
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Posts:16
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| 09/13/2005 10:19 AM |
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I've seen plenty of forums that praise wirsbo and their materials and why you shouldn't go anywhere else My question is very simple. Why? What makes them so much better than anyone else that has been certified by ASTM F 876/877 and ANSI 14/61 ? If a tubing is certified by these measures what are the other "highly valued" criteria that makes Wirsbo so much better? I'm trying to find a technical reason behind it. Maybe it's just smoke and mirrors with customer service....
Thanks
onlyinamerica |
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| 09/19/2005 5:17 PM |
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Smoke and mirrors.
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Unregistered
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| 09/23/2005 1:26 PM |
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Well, hold onto your hats. Just as a reminder, these are my opinions backed up by facts. Take them as you will.
One anonymous person after 99 people have read it! What I'm more suprised about is how many people, plumbers and self proclaimed "experts" have nothing to say about the actual content and quality of the PEX. There is an overwhelming amount of praise for their product yet I believe it not to be their product they are praising but rather the excellent customer service they may provide. Using a product that does not incur problems can become a mainstay for contractors who put their reputation and livelihood on the line day in and day out. "Why take a chance on something else that might cause problems" is a valid question and one I respect. How can you argue with a 30 year old track record? Why bother changing?
Cost a.k.a. Bottom line. If you think contractors are in the business because they simply enjoy the work or because they have nothing else to do is ridiculous. Money. And as much as they can make or, for some, enough to make a respectable living. Either way they need to make money.
It's very easy to walk into your neighborhood plumbing supply store and get a quick design and cost list that you pass onto your customer. If the customer thinks it's too high then you may play the numbers game or just reduce the size of the system to fit their budget. You factor in your labor plus some for profit and you're done. Install it and get out without a headache. Easy peasy. No critical thinking necessary.
But what about getting to the bottom on why something works well and how does it function? What about understanding what materials you are putting into someone's home and the quality of it? Don't you owe it to them and yourself? If you proclaim to be an expert than you should be able to back up your info with some facts rather than hide behind a marketing ploy. "It's the best because they say so". You'll be one of those contractors who can't make it because you never chose to get any better at what you did.
PEX is governed by the same standards across the board. The main 4 are ASTM F 876 and 877, and ANSI 14 and 61. You either pass or fail the tests to gain your certification. Two types of tubing that pass these tests are of equal quality and neither has a performance curve that exceeds the other by any appreciable amount to make it unsatisfactory to install in a residence. If there was a large difference then these two tests would be worthless and make the STANDARDS invalid. These are standards, not just quickie measurements that some get and some don't. They aren't like some of those other affiliations that don't mean squat but rather make you look better. These are tough physical tests that put the tubing through rigors to make sure it's highly acceptable to install most anywhere. Wirsbo goes through it just as Vanguard and MR Pex. They all pass the test and are all of equal quality. It is the marketing you are paying for.
I sent Wirsbo the question to explain to me why I should buy their product. What a joke as a response. An absolute joke. They gave me no measurable facts but rather comments like passion, teamwork, "can-do" culture, face to face selling, and so many more "facts" that make you chuckle. There was no response when I responded asking them to give me some concrete facts. They compared PEX to a stereo. PEX is not a stereo and is nothing like it. PEX is a material that can be made by crosslinking different ways. Whichever method you perform you still have to have it tested to make sure it meets standards.
So, if you're a do it yourselfer or a professional, you can pay a high price for marketing and support or save yourself quite a bit of money and buy any of the pex that is certified and feel confident it will work just fine.
I leave you the floor to refute my findings. I'm very curious on anyone's response.
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Unregistered
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| 10/13/2005 2:07 PM |
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As a contractor I can say that after looking at all the brands of radiant systems out there, Wirsbo is the only product I will install. I would rather lose a job than have to stand behind some fly by night companies product. When it comes to innovation and testing Wirsbo leads the pack. In addition to pioneering the manufacturing of pex, Wirsbo is the only company that has had their tubing under continous labrotory testing for the past 30 years and they have over 4 billion feet in use worldwide. In addition, their installation procedures are very reliable. After tens of thousands of feet installed, I have yet to have a leak in the tubing or manifolds. Also their training seminars are the most intensive training sessions I have been to. I might be willing to take another look at the copycats, Vanguard etc. after they have been in business 400 years like Wirsbo. You comment about walking into the plumbing store and getting a quick design and not having to have any critical thinking involved shows just how little you actually know about how a radiant system should be installed. My systems are designed by myself and double checked by the design from the distributor. If a customer thinks a bid is too high, I don't play a numbers game. While I do take into serious consideration the budget of the customer, I will cut costs only until it starts to jeprodize the integrity of the system. At that point I simply refuse to install something I feel is inferior. My business has been built from the very beginning on quality and not cost.
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Unregistered
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| 10/21/2005 3:57 PM |
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Thanks for your response. 339 reads and one, true response. But, that doesn't help refute/support my topic. Another Wirsbo assimilate. 400 years? Nice. You have seen ALL the brands out there but you list one, Vanguard. I'm assuming that they told you that they lead the pack with innovation and testing. Ahem. They all HAVE to go through the same testing! That's called a standard.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you haven't used any other product than Wirsbo. Okay. How does that give you a right to state that they are better than all the others? Because they've been in business for, oh, 400 years? Because you haven't had a leak? Most leaks are going to occur at your joints. You apparently do them correctly. Good job. I commend you for your quality work. Never had a leak? Impressive. Now, if you've done a job with another brand and found problems let me know. We'd all like to know that. All 338 of us.
Know any product that has failed because of poor product rather than poor installation? How about inflexible product versus Wirsbo? How about over time? Got any situations like that to help support your statements because that's what I'd like to know.
See, this forum is about leveling the field and learning the fundamental reasons behind the quality of the product, not training, marketing, cost, customer service or any other intangible item. It's not for attacking those who install it poorly or with high quality. It's about the product. That's all.
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 10/26/2005 3:41 PM |
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The astm and ansi standards are "minimum" standards. All three types of pex meet these standards. Pex-a (Wirsbo and Rehau) has about 85% crosslinking, pex-b is 65 - 70% crosslinked, and pex-c is 70 - 75% crosslinked. The crosslinking directly relates to how strong the pex tubing is. There have already been some studies suggesting that pex-b may not last as long as pex-a or pex-c. But yet they all meet the minimum standards set forth by astm and ansi. So do you want to drive a honda or a yugo? They are both going to get you where you want to go for the first few years but what is going to happen down the road is anybody's guess. I only mentioned Vanguard because outside of Wirsbo, Rehau, and Quest, Vanguard is the only other large manufacturer out there. Chances are if you buy any off brand tubing, it's just vanguard with another name stamped on it. You ask if I have ever installed any other products. I've installed Rehau and Vanguard. My thoughts are that Rehau is an excellent product, but there are no distributors in my area that carry it. Vanguard in my opinion, is "cheesey" to say the least. Everything about their system looks and feels cheap! Getting back to standards, just passing the astm and ansi standards is one thing, but subjecting your product to 30 years of continuous labrotory testing is another. To the best of my knowledge, Wirsbo is the only company willing to not only foot the bill for that testing, but subject their product to it. Another thing, the pex tubing, while being the most important part of the system, is just another part of the system. When a customer buys a Wirsbo system from me they are getting a complete Wirsbo system. Looking back at service calls I have made on other brand systems, Wirsbo electronics, manifolds and controls outlast all the others. When a part does fail in the middle of winter, do you want your service technician running around trying to find a part that may not even be available anymore, or do you want a tried and true product that is still going to be around?
Something else to think about is cost. I reject the common notion that a Wirsbo system is going to be more costly than any other system. While the distributors are going to charge more on a one time cash sale, my cost is not out of line with the other brands. I can install a Wirsbo system most of the time for the same amount that a Vanguard, Rehau, or no name no warranty system will run. In fact I have installed systems for the same amount that an internet company will charge you just for the materials. That being said, I still sell my product based on quality and not price. The quality of the product is just as important as the quality of the company that sells it. There are alot of people out there right now wishing they had bought Wirsbo rather than Heatway. What happened when the Entran hose manufactured by Goodyear and sold by Heatway started failing? Goodyear claimed it wasn't their fault and Heatway filed for bankruptcy and sold out to Watts. Meanwhile there are alot of homeowners that have had cold floors for the past 10 or 12 years and no help from the companies that produced and sold a defective product. Granted entran was not a pex tubing but it still met the astm and ansi standards that everyone holds up as if Moses brought them down off the mountain. Bottom line is that you have to be more than comfortable with the product and the company that sells it. Once again Wirsbo is the only product I will install.
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 10/27/2005 11:01 AM |
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Nice feedback. Personally I'm a truck man. I'd never fit in a yugo and barely into a Honda. maybe the SUV type. [:D]
I'd like to talk about the long term effects. you said Wirsbo tests their product for 30 years. I think that's great but haven't seen any testing nor did they provide me any data supporting that. When I asked for reasons to purchase their tubing they provided no data on why I should. Wouldn't THAT be a great marketing strategy IF noone else has had the testing done to their product?
But, when I had the discussion about the standards, the tubing is tested for 50 year longevity. That's part of the testing. No tubing that passes the standards test fails that test. The reason I believe they don't market it in that way because they all pass that test.
The crosslinking methodology is a topic that is still being argued today. All three types are acceptable from what I understand and many systems of each have been installed without problems. They all pass the standards test. It would be wonderful to hear or read about problems customers/installers have encountered along the years and would be willing to share. I was hoping you would have had some stories of problems you found with certain tubing within your time. Strange, huh?
You go on to mention complete systems. I tend to think that the tubing, no matter which you pick, if standards approved will function without any issues for the life of the system. The real quality of the system is in the pumps/circulators/valves, etc. That's where the expertise and quality arises. I think this is where each company sets each other apart. If a person was looking to buy everything from one place then, yeah, maybe Wirsbo might be your best option since they have everything streamlined. That's nice and the reason so many people choose their product. The controls are the only complicated part of the system. (The thermal calcs to determine tubing runs aside.)
Failures/call backs:
Most of the failures are going to be with the moving parts of the system or any crimp joints someone did poorly and not with the PEX. If someone could give some incidents of the pex failing due to pin holes not caused by nails or splits, etc would be a nice start but up until now, and everywhere else I've ever read/encountered has not had one issue.
Moses was a great man. Entran was not PEX. I think comfort level with a product is a great thing to have. I don't hold it against someone. Heck, I don't even hold it against anyone who voted for Kerry IF and only IF they have a good reason. [}:)] The jury is still out. Thanks.
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tramar
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Posts:11
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| 10/27/2005 1:34 PM |
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Wow. Great stuff. Based on the dialog I see no reason other then preferece and sales hype as to why use Wirsbo. When I installed my system 3 years ago I used Mr Pex Tubing and manifolds and Taco on the controls and circulators. Not a problem since. But hey don't believe me contact them directy. When I had these same questions when spec'ing and installing the system I called them and spoke to the man himself. He started Mr Pex to directly compete with Wirsbo. When asked for why the price difference, his answer was simple. - They need to pay for the marketing.
Warm floors are cool![:)]
Who is Mr. Pex?
Mr PEX® - Tomas Lenman - started at Wirsbo Bruks AB in Sweden as a development engineer in 1971, developing the very first PEX process ever invented. He developed many Standard Specifications for PEX Tubing in Europe and Australia. Mr PEX® wrote the ASTM F 876/877 for PEX Tubing during 1982-84. In 1982 he co-authored the book “Water and Pipes”. He founded and managed Wirsbo Company (USA) 1984-1992 and continued consulting for this group until 1996. He authored the CSA B137.5 standard for PEX Tubing in 1989.
Mr PEX® managed the successful start-up of Roth Industries PEX Tubing Division 1997-2001 after which he started his own radiant floor heating supply company: Mr PEX® Systems using PEX Tubing with exclusive distribution in North America for LK PEX AB in Sweden. The unique production process is invented by Mr. Lennart Aagren of Sweden, previously manager of Uponor Innovation AB for many years, and his second innovation of a PEX Tubing manufacturing process.
No one has more knowledge and experience with PEX Tubing and Radiant Floor Heating Systems than Mr PEX®.
What were you thinking? |
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 10/27/2005 1:56 PM |
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AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHH. [:D][:D][:D]
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Unregistered
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| 10/27/2005 4:28 PM |
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True, the problems I have encountered with other brands of pex has been with the fittings. Thats one of the reasons I prefer pex-a (Wirsbo or Rehau). I like the fact that the extra amount of crosslinking enables you to use a pex sleeve expansion type fitting. Wirsbo calls this the propex system. I don't know if Rehau uses the same system or not. The only experience I have had with their tubing was with a compression type fitting. Also, kinks do occasionally occur and any kinks in pex-a tubing can be solved with a heat gun and not a mechanical joint, one less thing to worry about after the concrete has been poured or the drywall has been put up. I've asked a couple of tech reps of other companies (Quest and Vanguard) if this can be done with their tubing and they tell me I can try, but it will void the warranty. I still believe that the Wirsbo system is the best out there.
Wirsbo tells me that with the labrotory testing they have had done on their product, they expect their tubing to last over 100 years. I probably won't be around to see if thats true, but I hope to be.
I still believe that the Wirsbo system is the best out there. And before anyone starts accusing me of being a company schill, I don't have to install Wirsbo, but I won't spec anything else.
I have seen one failure of pex-b (don't remember the brand) but it was in a plumbing system that froze and caused the tubing to split. Maybe the tubing was exposed to sunlight too long before the house was enclosed. All I know is that talking to builders that have used Wirsbo in their plumbing, while they have had tubing freeze they have never seen it burst.
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tramar
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Posts:11
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| 10/28/2005 1:06 PM |
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I don't disagree with the fact that Wirsbo is a good product. I believe they were the first on the US market with the cross-linked pex product. (From my previous reply) Also please don't take my response as bashing. That is not mine (and I hope anyone else's) intention on this topic / forum. I like the fact that we can have open dialogue. Too many times when I was getting ready to install my system did I run into the "It won't work, but I won't tell you why" response. Open free exchange of information and experiences is good.
Anyhow back to the matter at hand. When I poured the first slab on my addition I used Wirsbo because I was pressed for time and could not wait for the delivery of the MR Pex from Vermont. The cost 3 years ago was a little over $1 / foot with the tax included. The Safelink Pex from MR Pex ran me just $.45/foot. solid brass construction of their manifolds is also quality at less. I'm going on my 3rd year now with no problems. 3 down 97 to go. I will keep everyone posted if there are any problems encountered.
BTW the reason I am so adamant about the reduced cost is because Radiant HW heat is such a highly efficient way to heat ones home. great efficiency means lower fuel consumption, etc. etc. Bottom line better for the environment. Lower cost means more people can afford.
Just my 2 pennies worth.
Have a great fall weekend |
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Unregistered
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| 10/30/2005 6:20 PM |
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Just out of curiosity what % of the equipment cost does the PEX represent? Is it 50%? 30%? 1%?
I'm just trying to get some order of magnitude that this dialogue represents in the big picture of getting a radiant system.
Curious
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Unregistered
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| 10/31/2005 11:04 AM |
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Now we're starting to get more people in on this. Thanks! Dear Curious, it really is dependent upon your wants and needs. If you have a lot of floor space to heat, the total cost of pex will increase. The more efficient the boiler, the higher the cost of the system. This is part of the discussion we are having as well. Why pay for the higher cost of Wirsbo pex if the quality is the same as others? so far no hard core examples or facts to say so. I'm using 10,000 lineal feet of tubing in my application so you can see how saving 10 cents per foot to not pay for marketing is quite the additional change in my pocket. BUT, that $1000 dollar savings is not worth saving IF the pex is of lesser quality. Imagine now, if you bought hundreds of thousands of feet of pex per year..... I don't think I answered your question but it depends on the size of your system.
Thanks for being curious.
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Unregistered
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| 10/31/2005 3:02 PM |
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Excuse my ignorance so for our retirement home the difference between 1500 ft of Wirsbo or brand X might be in the order of a few hundred dollars?
I'm having a hard time following the reasoning of this exchange because when we buy the system it becomes ours not the installers, which means we the home owners, own the brands in the boiler room and when the time comes to sell we don’t want the no name low cost brands, we want the well known product that everyone recognizes.
If what were talking about is a few hundred dollars for the recognized leader over the time we occupy the home the extra dollars becomes irrelevant. Even if we manage to live another 15 years with inflation the few hundred bucks extra is like spitting in the ocean.
In fact, from a pure commerce point we would much rather have inflation and property appreciation applied to the higher priced market leader than the lower priced product because it generates greater returns.
What am I missing here?
Curious
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tramar
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Posts:11
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| 10/31/2005 4:03 PM |
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Lots. We are discussing the merits of marketing v. quality. Specifically all things being the same why would you spend more on a duplicate product that cost more. Just for the name?
One sure way to get to the bottom is to ask for the warranty on the Wirsbo. All things being considered if Brand-X and Wirsbo offer the same 25 year warranty why would you go with the higher cost manufacture.
By the way if you go to the Wirsbo site it states the warranty is only when installed by a certified Wirsbo installer so who ever is installing your system make sure they are certified.
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Unregistered
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| 10/31/2005 5:14 PM |
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So as a homeowner trying to sell my house in the future, a brand x carries more value than the leading brand? I was told the radiant was an upgrade and now I want to downgrade by using a no name? Can anyone give me some published data that says the value of a no name product appreciates at a higher rate than the leading brand?
As far as warranties go I did a search of claims on radiant systems and it appears it does not matter what any of the manufacturers say, the coverage is only as secure as the manufacturer and insurance company backing up the policy. Both the Shell and Goodyear cases set precedent for that so when it comes to comparing warranties I would rather have my lawyers deal with a company who manufactures here in America than fight a battle with a European extruder selling to a private labeler who can dodge the bullet by passing on the claim to an offshore producer regardless of the quality or the man behind the science. At the point of a warranty claim if required, quality and recognition is a moot point.
So far what I’m hearing is the benefit for a low cost product is towards the contractor who may end up trying to sell us a no name system for the same price as a brand name system and the difference in cost goes into his pocket instead of the value of our home.
Again, please help me understand where the benefit is to buy a lower cost product when it is only a few hundred dollars difference.
Curious and now confused.
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Unregistered
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| 11/01/2005 11:50 AM |
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From what I understand is that you don't truly care whether or not you spend additional hundreds or even thousands of dollars at a name brand. Why buy Bayer aspirin or Clorox when the FDA controls the requirements on the effectiveness of the product and the ingredients are exactly the same? Why buy tums when the main ingredient is exactly the same as the no name. I see it as an informed customer and/or contractor who knows his product. Why haggle over a couple thousand on a car when, if you extend it out over 10 years, is only a couple hundred bucks per year? heck, a mere pittance. [}:)]
The only person who would ask you about the type of pex tubing in your house you're selling is one who is informed.
I personally don't care to just give my money away because someone says it's a better product when, in all reality, it isn't. You mentioned a couple hundred bucks for 1500 ft. Well, my application has 10,000 feet. What about contractors who use tens or hundreds of thousands of feet per year? What about over many years? That's quite a bit of money to me. If you don't care about a few hundred here and a few thousand there then please give me your name and number as I would like to do any job for you.
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Unregistered
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| 11/01/2005 12:59 PM |
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I think the challenge here is that I as a consumer believe the customer, who is the ultimate owner of the system, should be making those decisions, which influence the value and ownership of the product. But what I’m hearing and reading is that the seller is putting their interest ahead of the purchaser.Why would a consumer care what you are doing with a 10,000 ft project? Is that standard for the low cost product in the heating business? Because the home theatre guy isn’t trying to save me any money in fact he’s counting on all the other people bidding on our home to be the cheapest so I can afford to upgrade my speakers and amps. Even the tile guy is trying to upgrade me and advised that I could save some money by putting in electric radiant. When did the hot water heating contractor become so concerned over the net worth of the customer or the ability to purchase the brands of our choosing?
I was told repeatedly that radiant was an investment so I am looking for the greatest return possible.
That means I, as a homeowner am making an investment in a product and taking a risk that their specific brand will get better with age.
If I wanted something cheap to drink I could use the public fountain but bottled water is our choice. We could buy the low cost coffee but we spend $3.00 for Starbucks every morning. If I want a cheap heating system then a furnace is the lower cost product. It’s certainly easier to understand and get installed with much less confusion and conflict as evidenced by this conversation.
I’m counting on the manufactures to spend as much money as they possible can to raise awareness of their brand sitting in my house so when the time comes to sell everybody knows about it, recognizes the brand and wants it. That means the appliances, the hardware, the fixtures and the heating systems are going to the selling features when we move.
As far as I can calculate based on capital cost and risk, the best financial scenario for us is to have the no name installed at the no name price then have the no name become the leading brand by the time we sell, that way we have bought at the lowest price at the time of construction and can sell at the highest price at a value reflecting market appreciation, inflation and brand name recognition.
Maybe it’s my thick head but perhaps someone can tell me how by the time we cash in, the no name gets to be the leading brand without spending a dime on marketing?
You guys are evidently a lot smarter than I since you’re in the business, so you must have published data that gives examples of how consumers like me end up owning the cheapest product hoping it becomes the most desired product without the manufacturer spending a dime on creating a market for their stuff.
By the way our accountants have been able to obtain Wirsbo's and the other brands financial statements since they are public companies and make this information available to consumers. They've tried to locate the financials on Mr. Pex and the European extruder with no luck as yet, can you please advise how we go about determining their financial strength besides counting on their word that their low cost product is the best?
Please hurry if you can because we are about to decide on which system to go with.
C & C
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tramar
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 11/01/2005 2:55 PM |
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Ok since time is of the essence, and believe or not we do have everyone's best interest in mind here. OIA and I are both EE's so we have some experience in the research area. Neither of us are contractors or certified plumbers. Although I would argue that I have a mean set of plumbers tools and a really cool workshop and OIA does not. (yet)
Mine is an attitude of why buy the name if the quality is the same. Unless you are OK with throwing money away. I for one am not.
As stated in a previous response, no one (Well maybe some plumbing geek)who is going to purchase your home is going to make the decision based on the fact that you have a wirsbo radiant system as opposed to a system that is comprised of the various "Best of Breed" / least cost components.
Again the value added to your home and its resale price are based on the fact that you have a radiant heating system of good quality. Not who manufactured it.
Any heating contractor that states otherwise, have your accountants ask them for the numbers to prove it. IE: Homes that have a wirsbo system and there selling price vs. homes with a Radiant heating system using best/lowest cost components to build the same architecture based system. My bet is that they don't have the information will say do you want this or not.
Bottom line: Any contractor, not just heating is going to stick with only one / maybe two suppliers. This way they make the most money and have the least systems to support.
Speaking of support: Radiant heating systems are as easy to support as other conventional systems so if they say it takes a special plumber to repair I would be leery as well.
As mentioned, I spent roughly 6 months researching Radiant heat facts and system configurations before I installed (not by contractor) my own system. What I found was that the tubing and manifolds are only one point and that when compared, the Safelink pex and manifolds offered as good, if not the same quality as the wirsbo for (at that time) roughly half the price.
BTW, after some quick research (search for pex sales on the web) I notice that the wirsbo pex and products are coming down in price, most likely to compete with the lower cost safelink products. Just a guess, but based on my quick web research I would bet it is a correct assumption.
Here is what I did in case you are interested. I Installed the Safelink pex and manifolds, used a Peerless Pinnacle ultra high efficiency gas boiler (very clean, good for environment)to run the system (3800SF roughly) for a total of approximately $10K. I also added a crown indirect water heater. I used Taco 9007 and 010) circulators to control each of the 5 zones. The system is configured for multiple temperatures in a primary / secondary loop system. I could give you the exact cost but would need to find the paperwork. It works greats and since I plan on being their for a long time I feel comfortable with the quality.
On a final note: You say you want to stay with an American based company since if there is an issue you don't have to deal with European vendors. All of this was designed over in Europe where heating systems are designed to be the most cost effective and at the best price.
Their systems kick the a.. of anything designed in this country because they care about how much they spend on heat since it is so damn expensive in Europe.
Also all the tubing issues that ended in law suits were American made cheap products not the Pex from over in Europe. Please go to the mr. Pex site and read the testing methods documents. You will see that its standards are much more stringent then anything for the same product within the US.
Good luck. If all else fails go with wirsbo.
PS: Under no circumstance should you put in an electric radiant heating system. Unless your electric is free.. |
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 11/01/2005 3:48 PM |
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So we started out curious, went to confused and after rereading the previous post (OIA?) are now concerned by the statement, “From what I understand is that you don't truly care whether or not you spend additional hundreds or even thousands of dollars at a name brand.”
Why would it be any concern of another where we invest or spend our money? The last person I want to have any interest in our financial well-being is someone who wants to sell me low cost products...that would be like the girl behind the counter at the everything for a dollar store tying to save me money. It’s our dough, we worked hard and smart for it and it’s ours to be concerned with unless we decide to exchange it for goods or services offered that meet our personal wants as a consumer. Do we ask where or why the contractor or distributor spend x dollars on a specific tool brand,computer, cell phone, truck or shoes for ones kids. Do we say to the contractor, ya know if you bought the Black & Decker Home Depot special router instead of the high priced Hitachi brand you could lower the cost on our imported sinks. I think informed consumers would appreciate the courtesy of those selling not to try to be the financial advisors to those who want and can afford the price of a radiant heating systems regardless of whose PEX pipe. It’s insulting. Evidently, this is not preached at the low cost school of business.
I’m not sure what was meant by “The only person who would ask you about the type of PEX tubing in your house you're selling is one who is informed.” Again, I’m confused, are representatives of the low cost no name brand counting on uninformed consumers? Or is it being said that when consumers are informed about similar qualities of PEX in a home, they will choose the no name brand over the leading brand? My wife will have a heyday with her brand conscious friends over this. With her network of middle-aged and very informed girls, warnings about using low cost PEX will get around the new neighborhood faster than the wild fires in the west.
Also we don’t give our money away either without expecting a return and so far our research is showing that both products will do the job but one brand will have recognition and we’re counting on that fact when we eventually sell. In fact since we haven’t been able to determine the financial strength of Mr. Pex and their extruder, our choice is becoming easier unless someone reading this post can come back with some better written evidence that the no name low cost products will have brand name recognition when we sell and that applies to everything going into the home including the kitchen sink.
Its also a concern that representatives of the low cost product are willing to work for us on “any job” but feel that the first option is to sell the lowest priced product and the second option is to work for clients that are willing to invest in the leading brand. Now we’re beginning to feel like we would be taken advantage of. At least we know where we stand when we commit to the higher priced product. But how would the educated consumer define the firm that changes course based on the direction of the wind? Image a doctor, lawyer, accountant, arborist, baker, bus driver or engineer changing direction on their services as soon as it becomes apparent that its more self serving to set aside their position as long as it lines their pocket when the gravey train customer shows up.
… would like to do any job for us any day…perhaps but so far what we’re learning is that our money is other peoples business, have questioned our ability to determine what we feel is of value for us as consumers, have created confusion and concern by slamming the leading brand then saying that if we as the right client came along the job would be done any day…
Now my wife and I are,
Curious, confused and concerned.
That would be three strikes.
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