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| 11/02/2005 8:58 AM |
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CCC,
First, I don't care where you spend your money. Second, why is your curiousity, confusion and concern considered as strikes? Lastly, I started this forum because I am concerned about MY money. I want to know WHY I should buy Wirsbo. I want factual information on why their product is better than ANYONE's. Did you read this forum from the beginning? This isn't about you. I personally want to make a decision on a product to put into my house on the merits of the product, not marketing hype. I am not slamming Wirsbo or any competitor. I am simply trying to make an informed decision to the core. Some people choose to buy a product because of a name or because the customer service is outstanding, not by material properties and the merits of product standards. If you are so curious, confused and curious then I bet you have a copy of Consumer Reports on your coffee table to see where the rubber hits the road. Again, have you read this forum from the beginning? I'm not here to convince you what to do. I've made my decision and apparently you have also. You will spend more money for the same quality product than I will.
You asked what I meant by "informed" when selling your house. How many people looking for a house know what radiant heat is, yet alone name brands, yet alone the quality of each brand? Do people ask the name brand of insulation or the drywall or the type of studs that were used in the wall because #2 pine will warp and twist more and fir? What about rugs? Tile? If you think that makes a difference than you're disillusioned. Everyone I know knows nothing about radiant heating nor names. They either are comfortable with water flowing in their ceilings or not.
You mentioned low cost representatives counting on uninformed customers. How many customers, or people in general, are uninformed when they buy a product? Quite an overwhelming number.
What return do you expect to get by paying more for Wirsbo? What do you plan to do with their name? Throw it around like it's impressive to people who have never heard of radiant heating yet alone Wirsbo? Those who don't know pex from pecks. Good luck in getting thousands back! You're muddying up the waters for this forum for me to get good information.
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| 11/02/2005 10:45 AM |
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As a contractor, Wirsbo tubing is not any more expensive than any other tubing out there, I buy thousands of feet of it every year, so I should know. Also, all pex is not created equal. There are three types of pex, pex-a, pex-b, and pex-c. In my opinion, pex-a is a better product because of the extra crosslinking and the "memory" of the product. Only Wirsbo and Rehau manufacture type a pex. If the product does not cost any more than an inferior product, why would anyone even think of buying an off brand product?
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| 11/02/2005 12:51 PM |
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Hi Cozyfloor. I agree all Pex is not created by the same process. 3 ways, agreed. You being a contractor having installed thousands of feet, I'm sure you can input some good, solid examples of inferior pex being installed over the years. Any breaking, splitting, pin holes, flooding of houses, call backs? Have you used anything else or know of anyone else who has used any other pex tubing?
Thanks
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| 11/02/2005 2:17 PM |
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Your words…“First, I don't care where you spend your money.”
Then why try to convince the readers to buy the cheaper product…smoke and mirrors?
Your words…“Did you read this forum from the beginning? “
Well here’s one reason why I responded…
“I leave you the floor to refute my findings. I'm very curious on anyone's response.”
Your words…“Again, have you read this forum from the beginning?”
Yes and evidently when you asked, “I'm very curious on anyone's response” your question and several others were evidently rhetorical comments so why use a public forum to spread your message?
Your words…”If you think that makes a difference than you're disillusioned.”
Insults? Does Mr. PEX require their promoters to insult customers? Perfect. Not only do you get cheap prices you get cheap shots as well. What a deal a two for one special.
Your words…”What return do you expect to get by paying more for Wirsbo?”
Is that another rhetorical question? The last time I responded you insulted me.
Your words …”You're muddying up the waters for this forum for me to get good information.”
You seem to be getting pretty frustrated with this go cheap dialogue…frustrated, insulting and selling the low cost product, just exactly the person we consumers want on our projects.
If you want good information don’t start out by drawing a line in the sand based on price then ask for a response and be shocked that someone stepped over the line and called you on your rhetoric.
Curious, confused, concerned and now convinced that I’m talking with a wolf in sheep’s clothes.
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| 11/02/2005 2:57 PM |
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Gents,
What did you expect when the two of you who are "both EE's" enter a public radiant website with a post started with "wirsbo blah blah blah" and then proceed to initiate a dialogue between you about the benefits of a low cost brand whilst challenging the reader? Smoke and mirrors? By who?
I'm going to stick around this forum for awhile but happy to step back when the line you drew in the sand is erased and the professionalism rises.
CCC+C
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| 11/02/2005 4:06 PM |
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Sorry If I offended you. Not my intention. It's just that your "argument" is not allowing others who may actually have technical data or real life experiences to prove to me that I should buy Wirsbo. That's it. That's why I started this forum. This isn't a geekfest of two EE's who get their jollies off of making arguments. Are you refuting my argument? How? Are you telling me that I'm wrong? How? Pleeeease tell me and show me the light. Have you said anything factual or simply tried to undermine my questions. If someone came out, showed me or proved to me technically why Wirsbo is better then I'll buy Wirsbo. Show me.
I'm also not trying to convince anyone to buy any product. I would like all the experts and radiant contractors out there to shed some light on this. You're not shedding light, but if I'm wrong then tell me how you have informed me of any aspect of why Wirsbo is better than any other product out there.
by the way, neither of us posted the "smoke and mirrors". I'm getting the feeling you may be a Wirsbo rep who simply wants to cloud this forum. one wolf to another.
For all the "rhetoric" you have provided I have received no good information yet. Step up.
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tramar
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Posts:11
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| 11/02/2005 4:12 PM |
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Dear 4C,
I would greatly appreciate if you would supply the specs for the heating system that your contractor has recommended. Fuel type, configuration, components, cost, loop configuration, efficiency, etc...
Thanks
Also: Please include your geographic reagion. Just the general area of the country for determining weather conditions.
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| 11/02/2005 8:35 PM |
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So let me take off my wolf clothes…
If your intention was not to offend, then why start the thread with “Wirsbo blah blah blah” or include in your opening salvo, “Maybe it's just smoke and mirrors with customer service....” or make off the cuff remarks about “ a total joke”?
I appreciate what it is you are looking for but not how you have approached it, which was to drag brands into the dialogue. In a pure technical discussion there is no room for names so if you want to continue the dialogue from a technical point of view then I’ll I’m going to chalk up the mention of brands and off the cuff remarks as a passionate moment and drop it from my radar.
So let me take off my consumer hat and put on my library hat and shed some light…
The Mr. Pex tube is a modified PE-Xa and a fine product and Tomas Lenman is no less than an industry icon. Dr. Engle shared with Tomas but only after Dr. Engle signed over the formula for PE-Xa to Rehau first. Wirsbo was fortunate though to have the vision first to move into North America and the industry had the privilege (and pain) of having Tomas stand firm with his knowledge of plastic and pipe during the Poly B and rubber Solaroll/Entran heydays. The industry silently tips its hat to Tomas for his fortitude. Today as in the past, Wirsbo, Rehau and Golan Plastic are the licensed extruders for the Engle method, which is a hot peroxide extrusion. Golan private labeled their product for Polytech who distributed it under the Heat Link brand. Polytech however as of last year had purchased two extruders from Crosslink Oy and use PE-Xa knowledge from a defunct Uponor Group called Pexep Oy. Wirsbo is a division of Uponor. Rehau was the sole supplier to Germanys Velta, which today leads the world in radiant applications including cooling. Velta was eventually purchased by Wirsbo as such there is no love lost between Rehau and Wirsbo and the story between Tomas and Wirsbo and Roth and now his own company is best left up to him to tell. PE-Xb (Silane) and PE-Xc (E-Beam) belong to the other competitors.
With my technical hat on….
The reality is each PEX extruder in the world whose product meets the standards of the country it chooses to do business in, can’t provide any scientific reason why you should not chooses your favorite flavor. The various extrusion methods only provide an edge for serving customer preferences and for differentiating product. That’s it. If the pipe meets the pressure and temperature standards and keeps the water on the inside then in the eyes of an engineer or inspector it’s all fair game and just shades and levels of confidence by the user and owner.
Technically the PE-Xa is considered superior by the leading brands for its uniform cross-linking, durability and reparability features. Its composition is more stable than Xb or Xc as such it can adopt connections like Rehau’s Everloc. It is also faster to produce since it requires virtually no curing or secondary process. This means quality control can be measured shortly after whereas it takes longer for the other methods. The Mr. Pex formulation is a bit more flexible than the other Xa’s a characteristic that the other Xa’s freely acknowledge. There is more but that is the short stokes.
With my marketing hat back on…
In the PE-Xa category it is estimated by KWD global pipe reports that Wirsbo dominates with a nominal 112 million meters sold in North America followed by Rehau at 32 million meters, then Polytech/Heatlink with 10 Million meters and coming from behind is Mr. Pex at 2.5 Million Meters.
At this point I won’t repeat my message of previous posts of brand recognition as the numbers speak for themselves. Perhaps given enough time Tomas will sell enough product to provide him with a comfortable retirement – I hope so, I consider him a friend. A check of the internet prices places the ½” below 0.40/ft and dropping which doesn’t leave a whole lot of margins to support the growth of a business over the long haul. Particularly as the price of raw goods climbs. Feeding a business with narrowing margins only makes it worse. At some point the prices have to rise or the business will not be long for this world. That would be a real shame.
Now…I deliberately invoked and provoked this conversation because of the way it got started with the Wirsbo blah blah blah comment. I apologize for bringing it up to a head but I have worked and still work with most of the manufacturers in one way or another and have for well over 20 years. There are ways to have conversations about the features and benefits of products without leaving consumers (who visit this site) in turmoil, which I have seen, over and over again by dialogues starting out with good intentions and ending up with customers buying a furnace because it was less confusing. Consumers and contractors have nothing to worry about with any PE-Xa product that I can say with confidence. All the PE-Xa producers are operated by the worlds leading specialists with long and respectable track records. If only the automobile companies could make simlar claims.
Putting on my humble hat and eating some pie of the same flavor…sorry and guilty as charged for the conflict - it won’t happen again.
Wolf Wolf
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| 11/03/2005 8:04 AM |
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Well 5C, the fifth C for Congratulations on impressing me. That's about as impressive of a feedback as I would expect to get from a forum. You have provided information that noone on the "outside" could possibly get from any website. The knowledge you have is quite outstanding.
The forum title was placed so I would get a rise out of someone. Many of the forums are not read because the title doesn't sound interesting. I chose to take the more agressive route to generate an audience with higher technical experience and that's just what happened. Would this forum really be at the top if I put the heading "help on best product!"? Gotta give me some credit, no?
I'm actually kind of disappointed as there is no more to argue about or no more digging to do from my standpoint. But that's what I wanted to achieve. Thanks so much. Priceless information.
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tramar
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 11/03/2005 9:13 AM |
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I concur, and no need to apologize. You reason was to produce thought provoking dialogue regarding the use of the leading brand over another when all other aspects are basically equal. A nobel intent. Your technical / marketing overview is exactly what this forum was intended to elicit. Thank you for the response.
I do have another question. If the primary manufactures are all using "about" the same PE-Xa process, and, based upon the analysis completed to date Ref: "Two decades of testing with plastic pipe" (circa 1993 T. Lenman Wirsbo - USA) in which PEX testing was analyzed through 10K continuous 20C - 95C cycles without failure, why only a 25 year warranty?
Based on the data from that report I would think the manufactures would be exclaiming this stuff will be around when the cockroaches inherit the earth...not just 25 years.
tramar |
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| 11/03/2005 5:04 PM |
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It is a very interesting industry that is for sure and our collective exchange above just one more example of its evolution. So credit to all.
The warranty stuff unfortunately in many ways became a marketing sword against each manufacturer, edging up 5 years at a time and its comprehensiveness a tool to win consumers over. Even other consumer products such as appliances, automobiles, fixtures and electronics have shorter warranties yet their failures cause more deaths every year than most other products. It’s difficult to remember that the PEX is nothing more than a conduit no different than copper or steel which have managed to escape the warranty battles. I can’t ever recall copper tube or steel pipe manufacturers battling it out over warranties…maybe it happened but it was off my rardar screen. Its hard to say what would be a reasonable number. I thought 10 was good back in the late 70’s and early 80’s. We know that even the best written warranty is insufficient if the manufacturer is unable to support it through premiums or not financially strong enough to bear the burden of a catastrophic failure resulting in a class action law suit as is the case with Goodyear or Shell who have had to step up to the plate because the original distribution vaporized. Keeping in mind that the cost of the product has an insurance premium built in along with the cost of keeping the lights on so the greater the coverage the greater the cost for the pipe and vice versa. In reality, the technical characteristics of PE-Xa are actually over kill for most application but not for the sense of consumer security whch it does provide…a typical radiant system might run at a nominal 110 deg F at 25 psig with a product that is rated for twice the temperature and 5 times the pressure. Even if the system had to deal with higher temperatures because of loads and floor R values it is still well under the capacities of the product. Minor manufacturing failures might include delamination of the air barrier (or in the case of PEX-AL-PEX the individual walls or seams) or UO’s (unidentified objects) in the pipe wall from unsterile environments (dirt, lint, grease etc...) but these are relatively rare occurrences in the scope of hundreds of millions of meters of pipe extruded yearly. Field problems tend to be the largest challenge including UV degradation (pipe gets left out in the sun) poor connections as a result of unskilled trades or mixing one manufactures connection on another’s pipe ( a big no-no). Aside from how the manufacturers view warranty; the consumer can turn any failure into a catastrophe (understandably so) as they work through the process of having a system repaired. Fortunately, these cases are extremely rare with modern systems and the consumer has a better chance of dying in a bus or train crash or choking on their food then having to live through a radiant failure which as far as I know has never led to someone’s demise…anger and anxiety perhaps but death …not yet.
10, 15, 20, or 25…what’s reasonable? It seems to change every few years. Next year someone will raise the bar to 30, and then they’ll extend the warranty to next of kin, then something else. I can see it now, brand x offers the client free accommodation at the Holiday Inn while the system is repaired so brand y offers the Hilton…and on and on it goes.
I shrug (sadly) at this because it just adds unnecessary cost to the system in the price of the pipe which has to account for the insurance premium in the same way that oversized circulators or control valves add zero value to the price of the system.
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| 11/03/2005 7:15 PM |
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Dir Sir,
And I say that out of respect as you were obviously working in this field while I was still drooling on my parents living room carpet floor. I greatly appreciate your reply. Both OIA (I will let him reveal himself to your out of respect) are as you now know EE's that work well outside the PEX world. However, being spirited engineers we both seem to be attracted to the purest nature of this product, the fact that it is very efficient, the heating system architecture, and yes to maybe get into the business ourselves to help others and make a few dollars some day. I greatly appreciate your feedback as to the warranty question I posed.
If I understand you correctly the warranty is really based on the possibility of litigation, not life span of the product. (No need to reply as I don't want any lawsuits here) That being said how pathetic is it that a contractor can state you are getting the MOST efficient system known but can't warranty it past 25 years for possibility of lawsuit. And in all reality it will outlast the wood structure itself if installed properly. Based on the heat curves I reviewed.
I hope that if your schedule permits that you, OIA and I may sometime meet or at least speak in person on a call.
Thanks again, its been a pleasure.
Mark from Lancaster Pennsylvania
tramar@dejazzd.com
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| 11/04/2005 11:03 AM |
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Thank you Mark,
No need for the formalities...I put my pants on one leg at a time like everyone else.
It would be pleasure to talk with you both.
You can do some more digging at our indoor environmental ergonomics site at:
www.healthyheating.com and http://wonderfulwombs.typepad.com/about.html
Our contact information as well as our travel schedule is posted.
Best Regards,
RBean
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| 11/07/2005 11:25 PM |
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Pex vs. Vanguard....Just attended a full day seminar at the Orange County fairgrounda in Costa Mesa, ca. for all the plumbers...I saw Gary Gage there (Gary is kind of a legend here in So. cal for pex), also a Vanguard seminar was presented...I remember Wirsbo seminars given to us contractors about cross linking and how to use the crimping tool and the failures in the past due to improper use of the crimping tool. Look, you got to be a gorilla to use that thing all day long...I understand they have improved the tool...however, Vanguard (refurred by a poster as cheezy) has a crimping tool your 5 year old could use, just one press and the ring is installed. Personally, I have a lot of upper body strength, however it is my workers that use the tools and I don't like call backs, that takes the fun out of the job along with the profits. What's your take?
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MrPEX
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Posts:5
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| 11/08/2005 3:01 PM |
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Hi all,
I just registered. Did not know of this site until last week when a member invited me. Thanks.
And thanks for many nice words from several persons regarding Mr PEX and my Tubing with same name.
Was impressed by the knowledge of some participants. Took me some time to figure out who the WOLF was. You got much of the story right! Wonder how you learned all that PEX history (also some from Europe)!
Anyhow, I am here, and there may be some people that have direct questions on the topic. I did not want to start writing on the topic by myself. But if questions come, I will try my best.
MrPEX - The FLEXIBLE PEX-a Tubing |
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Unregistered
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| 11/08/2005 7:02 PM |
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Tomas...it is good to read your words again.
Will we see you at ASHRAE?
It would be great to have you visit one of our T.C. meetings.
Drop by our site when you have a chance.
Hope to see you soon.
RB
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MrPEX
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Posts:5
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| 11/08/2005 7:59 PM |
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Hi RB,
Sure. MrPEXSystems has a booth at the ASHRAE. So you are welcome by, too. Or anyone else that visits this topic, of course.
Who tought you about some of the early history of PEX?
I'll start a little earlier than you did.
In around 1960, some lab people at BASF laboratories in Ludwigshafen (south of Frankfurt) had a some PEX pipes radiated by a small medical radiation equipment. Actually some of those pipes are still under pressure tests. After some 45 years. Beat Wirsbo samples that I put in 12 years later, at same lab.
Then, around 1965, Thomas Engel met with these lab peaple and learned from them, that it should be possible to make PEX Tubing by combining Polyethylene with Peroxide. Thomas Engel's employee Friedrich Imgram, was then given the task to find a combination that worked. He tested thousands of combination until he found ONE that worked. With an Excenter press they pushed the tube through Teflon coated oil heated tools. But were just able to make around 10 ft. of tubing before the teflon coating started waering off.
But 10 ft at a time was enough to start sending sample around the world. Engel sold licence options to some 12 - 15 companies around the world in 1967. Wirsbo and Rehau were two of them (others: Pirelli - IT, Misubishi - JP, Goodrich - USA, Continental - DE, and many others). They then had annual conferences in 1968 and 1969 to share their developments (mandatory in acoordance with option agreements). But the BIG GUYS out of those companies said, and "proved" that it was impossible to make a PEX process based on this invention.
Was it really .....???? will continue in next post...
MrPEX - The FLEXIBLE PEX-a Tubing |
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tramar
Registered Users
Posts:11
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| 11/09/2005 4:17 PM |
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Good afternoon,
Thanks for staying in touch. Since I have your ears (figuratively) I have a few questions that other readers may also have.
RB, I believe you stated that mixing the various brands of PE-Xa is a no, no. Why? Lets assume I am using Pex brass unions to join the pieces. Also this is under floor mounted.
2.) My tubing turned a brownish grey once in production. Since I took ultimate care when installing (Avoided UV and all that bad stuff, should I assume its from impurities in the water going through the HE propane boiler and various other CU / FE components.
3.) More of a living in the country question. Lancaster County PA is well know for its substantial limestone deposits (and people with wells). Any issues with running hard H2O (High PH) in PE-Xa? Did not see much test data there?
Also, what about acidic water for those that live near mining towns.
Lastly - Anything with H2O softener treated water. Two types here, NaCl or KCL may be used.
Thanks for all the great help. It will come in useful as OIA and I help others in this area.
Thanks
Mark
PS: RB, I sent an email to you at HH from my work address regarding searching for your site on google. Did you receive it? Vanguard Mutual funds, not tubing.
Warm Floors are CoolΖD] |
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Unregistered
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Posts:2321
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| 11/09/2005 9:10 PM |
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This has turned out to be a great forum. I could not ask for a better dialogue or audiance. As a homeowner who was lucky enough to install his own radiant heat system, the information provided here will help me help others!
What I know is that radiant is extremely efficient, recovers quickly, quite as a mouse, and biologic friendly (Warm floors are cool!). However, the cost to many is still prohibitive based on the retrofit costs or the cost to upgrade from traditional forced air systems. IMHO too many contractors are using the "Its the hip thing to do and charging more" technique to push these systems and make their money. If you question this, what would a home NY with a RH system cost as compared to a regular FA system? Not for just an upsell but also consider the first time buyer. Or better yet MDF2 (Mom, Dad, family of two) I would love to leave my current Telecommuncations project manager day job and work to further expand this type of system acceptance as it is so efficient and not that much more to install (New homes). Better heat, more efficient. One day I suppose. I appreacte your candor and willingness to help to participate in this forum. I hope to meet you both one day.
Thanks again, If you are ever in the Lancaster County, PA area drop me a line.
Mark in Lancaster, PA
tramar@dejazzd.com
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MrPEX
Registered Users
Posts:5
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| 11/11/2005 11:25 AM |
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Tramar,
Some answers/comments:
1. Mixing of various brands PEX.
ASTM F 876/877 requires quite narrow dimensional tolerances, so fittings typically works well at cross brand installations. The "problem" is mainly that no manufacturer warrants a joint made with a fitting from a different manufacturer.
Above is not valid for Wirsbo Pro-PEX Fittings. That Fitting is made for Tubing with PEX-a properties, only.
2. When you first fill up a system you put "fresh water" in the system. That is water with a fair amount of Oxygen dissolved in it. This oxygen will produce some rust quite quickly. And the color of this rust is somewhat reddish or brown. This is because it was a fairly high oxygen content present just after filling the system. So the corrosion product is mainly FE3O4, which is brown/reddish. After the initial "attack", the oxygen level in the water will go down to a quite low level (if you are using a Tubing with a good oxygen diffusion barrier). And the FE3O4 corrosion products will be transformed to FE2O3, which is black. So the discoloration will turn from Brown to Black. Typically within a week of start-up, but timing dependent on the temperature.
This discoloration is unavoidable. By using a Tube with pigment in it, this discoloration is much less visible....
3. Fresh water with a lot of calcium, etc. in it may lead to some deposits in the heating system. But that is of no concern since the quantity is comparatively very small. No additional deposits enters the system since it is closed.
But in a plumbing system, on the other hand, new water is entering all the time. For very hard waters, this could lead to system disturbances over time, restricted flow, etc. But this "problem" is worse in a metal (read copper) tube system. Deposits have a hard time sticking to the PEX Tubing wall.
4. PEX Tubing is inert to any pH in the range used for tap water. Again, Copper has some restrictions. Not PEX.
5. Softened water - no problem.
MrPEX - The FLEXIBLE PEX-a Tubing |
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