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| 01/29/2004 11:50 PM |
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It is the integrated aluminum heat spreader you would be missing by making your own. I don't think a simple thermal insulation blanket underneath would be quite the same.
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| 01/30/2004 10:53 AM |
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Ok, well, looking into the matter more I must agree that making your own warmboard knockoff is tempting. The pricing really is outrageous. I got a quote on thermalboard and it really isn't any better, $105 for 26.67 sq/ft. The equivalent amount of warmboard is about $141 and it is also server as your subfloor. Thermal board is roughly 75% the cost at least for the board itself.
As for a DIY knock off, here are my thoughts. All you really need is some sheet aluminum stamped with an appropriate groove. I couldn't find much on pricing for the aluminum and knowing what thickness would make a big difference. That is still an option, but would need much more reasearch.
A better option might be to take an existing product like a staple up system and do it on top of the sub floor. You wouldn't get as much heat spreader coverage as with thermal/warm-board, but if it works underneath, then it would work on top even better. Yes? No?
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| 01/30/2004 11:12 AM |
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Found it. Pre-grooved aluminum sheets for about $1/sqft, in just under 1 sqft sizes.
That leaves figuring out the second layer of floor and how to groove it. I like the idea of simply double sheathing, but routing in the grooves afterwards would be a nightmare. How would you keet it all straight, not to mention doing the curves. So, precutting the pieces before putting it down may be the better option. Design you own system for corners and you could do about anything.
Anyway, if someone is interested in developing this idea further, I would be interested.
-Nathan
nfdavenport@yahoo.com
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| 01/30/2004 11:48 AM |
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When considering a DIY option you also have to consider the cost of the extra matirial and all the time it will take to cut or router your extra matirial and attatch it to the subfloor. Sounds like the kind of thing that could take way more time and energy than it's worth. I guess if you were only doing a small addition it might be workable. I figure my time has to be worth somthing. If I wanted to do everything the cheep and slow I wouldn't own any power tools.
Joel Z
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| 02/06/2004 5:26 PM |
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I've thought about a DIY alternative to warmboard as well. I have installed a radiant system in my house--imbedded in the slab in the basement (works great), between the joists in two upstairs bedrooms (works less great), and am planning on retrofitting a system into my kitchen, where I've thought of using warmboard. I considered routing grooves into 1 1/8th subfloor (why use two layers of 3/4 or anything besides regular subfloor?) and then just laying sheet-stock aluminum over it and sandwiching it between the subfloor and floor. I also thought of laying sheet aluminum over the floors in the bedrooms with under-floor tubing to improve their efficiency. What worries me about these ideas--and also about warmboard--is the thermal expansion of the aluminum. I don't want it to start "ticking" or to mess with whatever flooring I put over it. Any thoughts about dealing with thermal expansion or its consequences?
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| 02/16/2004 8:55 AM |
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Laredo: I'm looking for an alternative to warmboard to.I have 130 sheets of plywood left over so I got to make somthing out of them.Have you checked the price on sheet aluminum yet?If so about how much at what gauge did you get a price for?I'm thinking of fabricating the climate panels but it looks like it will take some time to make.(3100sq ft house)Watts radiant has a sleeper system out that looks interesting.Aluminum coil stock is layed over the sleepers.Wonder about the noise with that one though Let me know here or e mail me at hfdblues @ aol.com Thanks Greg
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| 02/16/2004 9:31 PM |
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Where did you find info on the Watts system with AL coil stock?
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| 02/17/2004 1:02 AM |
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I've actually begun routing 1 1/8" subfloor for 5/8 PEX that I laid over a concrete slab. I simply couldn't afford the $100 difference per sheet for Warmboard. I bought the tubing from Radiantec, who also sells inexpensive aluminum heat spreaders for staple up applications(they hold two parallel running tubes on 6-inch centers). I had planned on installing these into the grooves I've routed -- but I'm now wondering if a single sheet of aluminum between the subfloor and flooring wouldn't be better -- or if they're even necessary at all. As Lairdo pointed out, thermal expasion and its associated noise is somewhat of a question in my mind. I would also like to hear anyone's thoughts on not using any aluminum at all. I understand the floor won't be as uniformly heated, however, I'm not sure this has anything to do with the overall efficiency of the system. Either way the same amount of heat that is present in the tubing will rise and transfer through the flooring into the room. While aluminum has a really high thermal conductivity, I also question how much heat is conducted by a 0.025" thick sheet. Warmboard claims thier surface is "500 times more conductive than concrete". Yes, but the thickness of material ultimately limits the amount of enery that can be tranferred conductively. Hope this thread continues -- I would really like to work this out. By the way, routing 1 1/8" subfloor with a 5/8" bit at depth of 5/8" goes quite quickly.
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| 02/20/2004 5:02 PM |
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RTI - WarmBoard Comparison ?? Does anyone have information on comparing these products or that has used the newer RTI Thermaboards?? Thanks
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clarkbr
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| 03/03/2004 3:27 PM |
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Is anyone still trying to make a warmboard like system. I read concerns about making it straight, but who cares. As long as it is generally laid out right and the tubing will go in. It seems like if you sandwitched some aluminum between your base layer and your spacer laler (the one you will router into) you would get something at least as good as a stapel under system. It should be better as you wouldn't have to pass the heat through the wood. I can see why you might not want to do this on a 3000 sqft house but for a 300 sqft remodeling it would seem to be a good option.
How is it coming for those already experimenting with it? |
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Terry Alsberg
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| 03/11/2004 4:28 PM |
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We at Warmboard do not claim that our panel is 500 times more conductive than a concrete slab. What we do say is that the coefficient of conductivity of aluminum as a material is about 490 times greater than gypsum concrete (forgive us for rounding up to 500), and about 240 times that of portland cement concrete. That only tells part of the story. At least as important is how the hydronic tubing is connected to the conductive panel as well as the thickness of the panel.
Just considering the thickness issue: a typical 1.5” gypsum slab is 60 times thicker than the 0.025” aluminum on Warmboard. If we do the math (490/60=8.16) that means that all things being equal, heat flow through Warmboard would be about 8 times as great as through gypsum. That same calculation works for the RTI product which uses 0.003” aluminum, which means that one might expect their heat flow to be less than one eighth of Warmboard’s.
Then there is the connection issue. A gypsum slab has about twice the contact area of Warmboard because 100% of the tube’s circumference contacts the slab, whereas Warmboard contacts 50% of the circumference of the tube. RTI’s panel barely contacts the tube at all because there is no aluminum in the bottom of the groove. How poor the contact is, is hard to quantify because the RTI aluminum is too thin to be stamped, but merely is irregularly torn and folded part way down the sides of the groove. If we assume 10% of the tubing has contact with their thin foil surface we might come to the conclusion that all things being equal Warmboard would have about 4 times the heat flow of a gypsum slab and about 40 times the heat flow of the RTI panel.
All of this is quite theoretical based on the laws of thermodynamics and the real world will vary because all things are rarely equal or that simple. What we can conclude from all of this is that coefficient of conductivity matters as does thickness of the conductive material and surface area of tube contact.
As to those who want to make their own Warmboard, all I can say is that plagiarism is the sincerest form of flattery and we are quite flattered. If you do this using 0.025” 1100-0 aluminum alloy and don’t count your time as worth anything you will end up with a system almost as good as what we sell. But unless you have a way of stamping aluminum with curved grooves you will lose output at outside walls where the tubing turns (exactly where you don’t want your output to drop). Unless you have a way of permanently and securely bonding the aluminum to the plywood as we do you are likely to have a noisy system.
To leave thermodynamics for a second and just reach into our common experience, there is a reason why frying pans are made out of aluminum not concrete. There is a reason why good cookware has thicker aluminum than cheap cookware. There is a reason that a burner that contacts the entire bottom of a pan heats it better than one that contacts a small portion of the pan. One merely needs to hold a sample of Warmboard in your hand and it becomes obvious why it is the best performing radiant panel. And trust me, if we could make cheaper and sell it cheaper we would. But we can’t, not without losing the performance Warmboard homeowners value. We use the best materials and the best process to make our panel. Better engineering is why Warmboard performs the best. Fortunately, with all of the efficiencies inherent to Warmboard, when any reasonable labor cost is factored in, the overall system cost of a Warmboard home is quite similar to other systems that are professionally installed. In other words, the best need not cost more.
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saltj
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| 12/15/2004 9:41 PM |
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I want to add radiant/hyronic heat to my cold, sunken living room (many windows, high ceiling, masonry, etc), and perhaps do the whole house eventually. My subfloor is 2" car decking (T&G) with 7/8" pressed board on top of that. Most of the the house is carpeted; some linoleum, a wee bit of tile. I'm guessing that for several reasons, but mainly the cardecking and pressboard which together would create quite a hurdle for heat to rise through, I want to install above the subfloor (yes?). If so, I presume I can remove the 7/8" pressboard and replace it with either a concrete or Gypcrete slab, Warmboard, or ThermalBoard? If so, I lean toward the latter two (DIY sounds nice, but Warmboard's post counters that pretty well), and if so, I'd be curious as to the merits of Warmboard vs ThermalBoard.
Also, I'd probably do the LR now and see how that goes (I'm sure I'll love it), and see if I want to commit to doing the whole house later, so any suggestions on how to build this that minimizes the additional costs of adding in the whole house later, while also minimizing any "wasted" costs should I not do it, would be appreciated.
Thoughts? Thanks. |
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| 02/09/2005 10:06 PM |
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I've installed warmboard & wirsbo's quiktrak system, very similar to thermalboard. Either product works fine. One thing I like about warmboard is that it takes the place of the subfloor and you get a quiet floor, and a somewhat soft feeling when walking on it. Of course once you cover it with floor covering the softness doesnt matter, unless you use something thin like vinyl. Heat output into the building is heat output. Either system will transfer the heat satisfactorily. The question is, how hot will the water need to be? Warmboard doesnt require very high temps per btu output thereby possibly allowing the use of high output water heater instead of an expensive boiler. There's where you can save money.The problem with making your own is that the tubing needs some force to hold it tightly against the heat tranfer fins. Most manufactured products have this feature built in, usually a custom groove or a u shaped groove with the top of it a little closed off to hold in the tube. I always prefer stapleling down tubing on top of normal subfloor then paying a gypcrete contractor $2/sq ft for an 1-1/2" overlay.
[:)]Happy Heating! |
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| 03/08/2005 11:27 AM |
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There's an alternative. What about Easy Floor? They have quoted $3.44/sf for aluminum reflector sheet, plastic grating to hold the pipe, 1/2 inch pex pipe, and metal sheets to transmit the heat. On top of that they would put 1/2 inch of backerboard and your flooring. I will use tile.
I will likely use it on about 1500 sf on top of slab and another 500 sf for the second floor on top of a subfloor. Easy Floor comes from the FlorHeat Company if you want to check it out. |
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| 03/16/2005 12:39 AM |
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I am in Canada they want $640 per sheet for warmboard. Anyone know where I can get it cheaper?
Thanks
Doug
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Jeff
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| 03/17/2005 5:46 PM |
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| The Warmboard panels are no where near $640/sheet even with shipping to Canada. I would contact Warmboard directly at 877-338-5493 and get the straight scoop. |
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| 03/29/2005 6:08 PM |
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Warm board sheets are approximately $180/each american in St. paul, mn
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dpman
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| 03/30/2005 7:03 AM |
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I paid $2.80 a foot for my materials for radiant over the floor. I bought the tube, plates, manifolds from Radiantmax for $2.30 a ft, and purchased the plywood locally, cut the plywood into strips to lay the tubing and plates in and it worked like a charm. Perhaps a bit more labor intensive then warmboard, I don't know as I've never worked with it. Yet the savings was the reason I went with them
Dave |
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| 04/03/2005 1:48 PM |
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warmboard is unbelieveably expensive
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| 04/17/2005 8:54 PM |
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I've been following this thread with interest, not because I'm planning to use Warmboard, it's too late for that. I have poured a 4" slab with 5" PU under with PEX embedded. Second floor has 1.5" portland with 1" EPS under. In reading Terry's explanation of Warmboard, there's a couple observations I made. One is BTU's do not travel through 1.5" of concrete to reach the surface, 1" to .75" is more reasonable, which increases portland to the range of 2 to 3 time less conductive than aluminum but high enough to accept all the BTU's delivered. Conductivity has only one characteristic that's important. That being response time. If one's needs require a short heat up time (resulting in a quick cool down time as well) then highly conductive radiant heat system is desirable. One advantage (disadvantage) of PEX embedded in concrete is the thermal flywheel effect. It provides for a more even distribution of heat as well as a slower heat up and cool down time. That is why the better cookware uses thicker aluminum but takes longer to heat up.
The second point is regardless of system, BTU's are not lost. BTU's are lost only when they go somewhere they don't belong. Whether a system is capable of heating a living space is more a function of the enclosure and floor covering as well as R value above and below the PEX. Yes, conductivity does play a role. Without it we would just be pushing hot water around in circles.
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