|
You are not authorized to post a reply.
|
 Prev Next
|
| Author |
Messages |
|
|
|
Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
 |
| 04/25/2006 7:06 AM |
|
I have had a bad experence with warm board. This is besides the contractors putting holes in the tube. The tubing that they specify and the silicone that they dont seem to specify will squeek . They havent told me what tubing wont squeek. I have installed over 150,000 square feet of Stadler Climate Panel. All with great success. Stay with a product that supplies the board,tubing,silicon and always screw the board down (not staples). You will have a great system and no squeeks. Remember with radiant it is not a cheep system and dont try to make it cheep. It is made for the customer who wants the best.after all I could heat a house with a 3 dollar log. You are installing comfort not just heat. I see it time and time again where people try to cheet and end up with an inadquite system. There are a lot of products out there. Take it from me I have over 28 years experence in radiant heating our company started in 1945. All they did back then was install black wrought iron pipe and big boilers. Allways in a slab or with cast iron baseboard. All good high quality products. Then there came better ways . Aliminum tubing,copper tubing,steel tubing, non barrier pex tubing. Not to mention a host of boiler that the manufacture promised to be the best sience the wheel. I allways stayed with the basics. Burnham-Buderus- Viessmann- . you put in these boilers and walk away. The Munchkin boiler is coming along and some day it will be dependable. Remember keep your system simple. Consult or better yet hire a good radiant heating contractor. Dont hire a contractor who sends out kids.If you can find the contractor that does the design and the work. You will get a better system.
|
|
|
|
|
NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:384
|
| 04/25/2006 10:42 AM |
|
Tommy, were you using PEX? Warmboard is spec'ing PAP pretty much exclusively these days. Shouldn't see any squeaking issues with that.
Quik Trak/climate panel are pretty close to Warmboard in price (with the subfloor deduction on warmboard), but they aren't even in the same ballpark in terms of performance, and their labor is higher. Where is the gain?
We've done plenty of quik trak. It certainly works. Just not all that well, if water temperature is any concern.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
|
| 05/27/2006 6:21 PM |
|
We have installed warmboard in our new timber frame home still under construction. I would like to use hand scraped wood floors do I need be looking for some special wood or brand that is made just for warmboard? I have been looking at Carlisle Wide Plank Floors as an option do you know of any others?
|
|
|
|
|
NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:384
|
| 05/29/2006 1:04 PM |
|
Warmboard is probably the most forgiving radiant floor install with wood of any other method. Very low temp, no additional moisture issues.. it's good.
That said, radiant in general doesn't usually cause problems with wood floors. But it will make existing problems with wood floors worse. So if you do not watch your moisture content, do not let the wood acclimate, or otherwise do not follow good wood flooring installation procedures, then you could have problems whether you have a radiant floor or not.. and those problems will be even more noticeable over radiant.
Generally, thinner widths are recommended, and you should be choosing flooring with an eye for "dimensional stability" if possible.
The RPA (www.radiantpanelassociation.org) has a flooring guide you can buy for five or ten bucks that has some good info in it, it's worth picking up.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
intelligenthouse
Registered Users
Posts:1
|
| 05/29/2006 10:20 PM |
|
| Kudo's to Warmboard, I have recently ordered there system and to this point (delivery date confirmed) they have been excellent to work with. They have succeded in meeting my excellerated schedule and have returned ALL phone and email inquiries promptly and intelligently. Thanks Warmboard....[:)][:)][:)] |
|
|
|
|
Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
|
| 05/30/2006 10:49 PM |
|
Thanks for the information I have ordered the book. We have about 7000 sq ft of warmboard and I will have about half of it covered with wood floors, carpet in the bedrooms and slate or some form of a hard surface on the rest. I have heard a lot of good things so I hope they are true. I will know this winter we will be moving in November just in time for Thanksgiving. Thanks again
|
|
|
|
|
Terry Alsberg
Registered Users
Posts:11
|
| 06/02/2006 3:56 PM |
|
So many questions. I’ll try and address those not answered by others:
BKnupp:
We are very sorry for your experience and would like to understand it better. If you have photos of the warped panels could you please e-mail them to the rep (I assume it was Jon Epps) that you worked with so that we have better information to work from. We have placed panels in cold storage and measured the typical deflection which was about 1” measured along the long (8’) axis. Was yours greater?
The APA (American Panel Association) which regulates the plywood industry, and regulates us as a member mill, has lots of experience with unbalanced panels with aluminum bonded on one side (the walls of RV’s, back doors of semi’s are but a few examples besides Warmboard). They find that most warpage happens due moisture rather than temperature. Not only was the temperature low during your installation, but the relative humidity was probably near 90%. I know this seems counter intuitive because we think of winter air as being quite dry, which it is relative to indoor temperatures of 70 degrees, but at 15 degrees the relative humidity soars to 90% or more.
Such occasional warpage as does occur is taken out when the panels are installed and no structural problems result. A single 32 square foot panel of Warmboard can withstand over a 100 lbs. per square foot load which works out to over a ton and a half per panel. The joists to which it is attached can carry a similar load. In the few instances of warped panels that we know of, one person standing on each end typically flattens the panel out until it is nailed or screwed down. Thereafter, it relaxes into a straight profile and remains flat. We are certainly concerned that your man hours for installation in fairly extreme conditions was somewhat more than that experienced in most Warmboard installations. Nonetheless, I am confident that the high quality of heat that you will enjoy for the life of your Warmboard heated home, will cause any inconvenience during the day or two it took to install the panels to fade in memory over the many decades or centuries of use after the home is completed.
dkane:
Of course you are right. I did not mean to imply that Warmboard heats the entire McMurdo Sound complex, which includes a large number of structures and a wide variety of construction types. We do heat the mess hall and are proud of that. My point in mentioning insulation was to caution people to not think that Warmboard can accomplish miracles no matter climate or insulation. All radiant systems, including Warmboard, bump up against a redline of about 30-35 BTUH/sf because of the 85 degree limit on floor temperature. Warmboard was selected for the mess hall for a variety of reasons including it’s high output, light weight (easy to transport on a C130) and ease of use by carpenters. Raytheon recently ordered some more Warmboard for a new weather balloon hanger they are building down there.
Tommy:
I am honestly mystified by you apparent inability to get information about tubing selections appropriate with Warmboard. Each of our sales reps take great pains to discuss tubing choices with each customer. Our installation kit includes an approved tubing list. Our website also includes that list (http://www.warmboard.com/approved_tubing.html). Each panel has stamped on it a cautionary note warning to use tubing from the approved list. Our custom panel and tubing layout drawings include the same note. Our website is printed on each panel and on all drawings in case the install kit has been lost or misplaced and our toll free customer support number (which can also inform you as to tubing) is also listed in case you are on a job site and cannot access our website. We had a small incidence of squeaky tubing a couple of years ago (when the wrong tubing was selected) which is why we work so hard to make sure each contractor is well informed on the 19 different approved choices of tubing. Stadler is a fine company but when you buy their panels you have a choice of one tubing (their brand of 5/16”) made only by them and one manifold type which you can buy only from them at their price. With Warmboard because we are standardized on the most popular size of tubing (62% of all PEX tubing used in radiant is 1/2” ID) your have a wide variety of tubing and therefore manifold choices from the very best hydronics companies in the industry at competitive pricing. We consider tubing choice to be one of the many advantages of Warmboard. Lastly, we highly recommend 1/2” PEX-AL-PEX tubing in part because it eliminates silicone from the installation process, saving labor, and eliminating the mess and expense of silicone. It is also easy to handle, provides a superior oxygen barrier while significantly reducing the amount of tubing and manifolds required. Since making it our strong recommendation well over a year ago, we have not had a single report of noisy tubing with that type of tubing. |
|
|
|
|
tedk
Registered Users
Posts:1
|
| 08/07/2006 10:31 AM |
|
I am thinking about installing Warmboard in my new addition (1000+ sq.ft) and then converting the remaining house from forced hot air to warmboard.. The cost is staggering, but from what I read, the comfort and energy savings due to reduced water temp is unbeatable.
I had general concerns about the EMF implications of the warmboard since the aluminum sheathing would, in my eyes, become a hugh antenna for EMF waves. Warmboard replied with an answer that fell short - 'we are curious about that issue as well, but have not researched it at this time.'
Warmboard also addressed this issue by saying the panels offer no EMF hazards because the aluminum in the panels do not contact each other, hence not forming a continuous metal conductor.
Has anyone fielded a report from customers about cell phone interference / cordless phone interferance in their Warmboard installation? Would grounding the panels be a good idea?
Also - I am planning to install ceramic tile across all of the warmboard - should I install a hardibacker board or tile subfloor board first? Will that reduce my overall thermal performance?
Thanks!
Ted K.
Philadelphia, PA |
|
|
|
|
NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:384
|
| 08/07/2006 9:23 PM |
|
I have heard of people having these concerns about all kinds of aluminum systems, but I have never heard any reports of any problems from any aluminized systems.
I suppose that doesn't mean there *isn't* a problem, but I have seen no evidence that there *is* a problem.
Tile installers will insist on some sort of backer under tile these days.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
|
| 08/28/2006 7:06 PM |
|
Hi,
It sounds like there is some great experience on this forum, and was hoping that I could get some advice.
I am building a home, and gc-ing myself. Cost is a factor, and because of that, I am building a panelized home with a walk-out basement, cape cod, attic trusses.
I would like to build an environmentally friendly home, which means that I am placing the house on Southern exposure to gain passive solar benefits, but would like to install radiant heating, possibly warmboard with solar panels, back up boiler.
i am located in Maryland, so have good amount of sun, but it ain't New Mexico.. :-)
Thoughts?
I am thinking warmboards on the main floor.
Basement--it will be unfinished for at least now... would you all put something else in the concrete--some other system--as I am pouring the foundation? Other alternatives?
And what about the second story on a cape cod? Heat will rise...is the investment in warmboard on the second floor--bedrooms and baths only--be worthwhile under carpet?
Thanks so much for your help on this.
Best,
Vickie
|
|
|
|
|
NRT.Rob
Registered Users
Posts:384
|
| 08/28/2006 9:19 PM |
|
Hi Vickie,
If you do solar thermal collection, the name of the game is low temperature water heater, as low as you can go. Warmboard certainly fits that bill. There is only one installation method I know of that would be even slightly better, and that is a regular concrete slab with acid stain finish and NO finish floor over it.
If I were you, I would insulate that basement slab with 2" of rigid foam, and pipe it in accordance with your heat load requirements (meaning, a heat load calc must be done). I would skip finish floor down there and do a colored concrete floor. Or, just pipe it, in case you want to use it later. AT LEAST insulate it!!
Warmboard on the 1st floor and perhaps the 2nd floor would be excellent choices, if it is in the budget. I would, however, skip the carpeting up stairs. Not because we can't heat the room with carpet there, but because carpet will raise your water temperatures and you want to avoid that at nearly all costs if you can.
Heat will NOT rise. Hot air will rise; and radiant doesn't create a lot of hot air. It skips that and goes right to heating objects directly with radiant energy. The "heat rising" phenomena is much less with radiant, which is great for cathedral areas, but not so great if you're trying to skip heat on the 2nd floor.
-=Northeast Radiant Technology, LLC=-
www.NRTradiant.com |
|
-=Northeast Radiant Technology=-
NRTradiant.com |
|
|
Guy Maluda
Registered Users
Posts:1
|
| 04/01/2007 9:28 PM |
|
To me, reading this thread, it is amazing to me that Warmboard has not posted on their website a test from a third party that actually quantifies the benefits of their products vs other installations. Specifically the test should include comparisons to a typical installation under the subfloor (with insulation below), to an installation above a wood deck with grooves in simple plywood, and to an installation with concrete above the floor. The do have a little graph that shows how warmboard gets heat into the space faster than a system with concrete, but presumably the heat eventually gets into the space with the concrete system. However, there are still many questions left: can the water temperature in the PEX actually be lower?; is there an energy savings over time?; does it work better than the alternatives when using wood floors?.
Until we can see some sort of actual test results, we are left to an intuitive guess that the aluminum gets the heat into the living space better and more efficientlly than the (much less expensive) alternatives. Ultimately the heat cannot go anywhere but into the living space, either above or below the floor, whether it is conducted through wood, aluminum or concrete. |
|
|
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
|
| 04/01/2007 10:00 PM |
|
Posted By Guy Maluda on 04/01/2007 9:28 PM
However, there are still many questions left: can the water temperature in the PEX actually be lower?; is there an energy savings over time?; does it work better than the alternatives when using wood floors?.
Well, I've got a sample of the product. And, I do like the fact that the aluminium cladding is heavy. Then I thought about how slick it might be when wet(before the roof is on).
But, I'm sure that it will blow the doors off of any under floor product. What some people up here, sell as radiant floor, is pathetic. I'm talking about 'staple up'. The pex literally hangs from the staples. Poor, poor, poor.
Water temp? I doubt that it could be really any lower than concrete or gypcrete. Energy Savings? Over under floor: Probably. Over Gypcrete or concrete: Hmmm, less thermal mass, so I doubt it. But it could be close. Wood Floors? Again, w/o tests, it would probably compare to gypcrete or concrete.
I did a rough cost analysis, and I think that I can do gypcrete or even concrete, for less than WarmBoard. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:110
|
| 04/11/2007 9:46 PM |
|
JC,
Please expand. I am thinking along the same lines. We will likely go full ICF. I like radiant and I do like Warmboard. I also have small sample at home. As I recall, Warmboard is about $5.60 per sq foot (last time I looked). We are planning on TJI's 560 (need large spans) and iLevel 1 1/8 panels (or Advantech). The iLevel panels in quantity are about $1.00 per sq foot, then add the PEX and Gypcrete. The PEX installation would be a wash for both. What have you come up with pricing for Gypcrete?
Leonard |
|
|
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
|
| 04/12/2007 8:49 AM |
|
Posted By lkazanov2 on 04/11/2007 9:46 PM
JC,
Please expand....What have you come up with pricing for Gypcrete?
Leonard,
I just figured the price at $100 per cubic yard. Thus, 2" deep = (36" / 2") = 18 x 9 = 162 sqft per yard. $100 / 162 = $0.62 per sqft. Even if I figure labor at $1 per sqft, I'm only looking at $1.62 per sqft. Plus any required underlayment, etc., it's a lot less than WarmBoard. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:110
|
| 04/12/2007 4:56 PM |
|
Thanks JC,
Indeed using the Gypcrete may be the best alternative. It has the thermal mass that Warmboard cannot match. In addition, the potential PEX squeek issue that occasionally comes up on this forum will be a non issue. (Plus you can use any PEX brand you like - I personally Reahau (those everloc fittings are slick)).
Leonard |
|
|
|
|
jbrown84
Registered Users
Posts:25
|
| 04/13/2007 8:44 PM |
|
What's the best way to protect the Warmboard product during the many months of construction. Cover all of it with 1/4" plywood? Any good suggestions would be appreciated.
Jeff in Mystic, CT
|
|
|
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
|
| 04/13/2007 11:44 PM |
|
Posted By jbrown84 on 04/13/2007 8:44 PM
What's the best way to protect the Warmboard product during the many months of construction. Cover all of it with 1/4" plywood? Any good suggestions would be appreciated.
Jeff,
That was one thing that I was concerned about. But, my main worry was that someone would get killed(slipping and falling) if the surface got wet.
I would think that a heavy poly(6 mil min) might be all that is needed. The stuff is tough, so it's like someone would have to try to damage it.
I would wait until most of the traffic is off(prior to final floor covering), before I installed the pex.
Good Luck!
|
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
jbrown84
Registered Users
Posts:25
|
| 04/14/2007 3:29 PM |
|
Panelcrafters,
Thanks for the tip about the 6 mil poly. My concerns in waiting to install the Pex later would be (1) stuff in the channels (2) feeding the Pex under interior walls. How can you avoid these problems?
Thanks.
Jeff
|
|
|
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1323
|
| 04/14/2007 6:22 PM |
|
Posted By jbrown84 on 04/14/2007 3:29 PM
My concerns in waiting to install the Pex later would be (1) stuff in the channels (2) feeding the Pex under interior walls. How can you avoid these problems?
Yea, I forgot about the interior walls. Plan B: Pex is tough stuff(unless someone is running around in spikes, or dropping lit cigarettes on it). So, I'd install the pex, pressurize it, and then install the poly. That sounds like a plan. Now, you could spend the $$$ to cover the WB with plywood or OSB, but that seems like a lot of extra cost.
But be sure to pressurize the lines. If someone drives a nail through it, you'll know when and where. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
|
| You are not authorized to post a reply. |
|
|
|
ActiveForums 3.6
|
Professionals Serving
Your Location:
GBT Project Albums:
|