GeoThermal not cooling during extreme heat
Last Post 07 Jul 2008 02:42 PM by RGT. 12 Replies.
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Steve5212User is Offline
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13 Aug 2007 07:30 AM
This is a long post so I'll make the point at the beginning here and then you can read as much as necessary after that...............I am trying to find out about  GeoThermal limits when cooling.  I am in the south with extreme heat and drought and my water in the closed loop cannot dissipate the heat so about twice a day it reaches "Hi Pressure Limits".  I can "power off and back on" the system and do a re-set and it is fine for many hours.  During these periods of extreme heat and no rain I have to re-set it a couple of times in a 24 hour period.  I am trying to find some place to research this situation to see if the explanation I am given (see below) for this is correct or do I possibly have other issues.  any help, knowledge or source of information to learn would be helpful.

The unit is a Water Furnace Premier 2  MODEL ATV 057 D 11 0 C L T.  it was installed in June 1998 as a new installation. 

This is the second year in a row I have had this problem and it has not happened prior to the last two.  The last two summers have been extremely hot and dry.

Following are some notes taken last year when this occured which offer more details:

8/8/06 = They checked the system and nothing wrong with it.  Tech said it is just overloading the system.  When it gets this hot with no rain the ground temp rises above its constant 65F.  This is made worse when the night temp does not get low enough for heat to get out of ground. Nights have stayed above 75F.  So the water in the lines do not get to cool down as much as needed and as temp in water rises so does the pressure – reason for the fault light.

 

Nothing can do but continue to re-set so it will cool as much as possible until get through this really hot spell and/or get some rain.

 

8/14/06 = Spoke with mfr = Nicole

She said re-setting the HVAC  repeatedly could damage the compressor, so they do not recommend that.  Not knowing all the details it is hard to say if there is some other problem but if the system checked out okay when serviced and since had system 9 summers and this is the first instance – it sounds like just unusually extreme conditions.  The best thing to do is when know these conditions are coming to try and avoid heating the house.  Close the blinds, not run oven, dishwasher, other appliances unless have to and at night when it is cooler – typical stuff.


Any help or guidance would be greatly appreciated! 




PanelCraftersUser is Offline
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13 Aug 2007 08:50 PM
Steve,
Try asking this question over at OurCoolHouse(Forum). They are pretty knowledgeable over there.

Good Luck!


....jc<br>If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building?
Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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13 Aug 2007 11:27 PM
do you know where the underground loops are buried? If so, try soaking the ground around the pipes. This will help to dissipate the heat.


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
FamousAmosUser is Offline
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14 Aug 2007 12:51 PM
Steve,

First of all, is your loops horizontal or vertical.  If vertical, a problem I have seen frequently by sub-standard contractors is that when backfilling your holes, they tend to 'bridge' the hole off and therefore you don't get the needed heat transfer.  Also, if vertical, how many feet per ton was installed?  If 150' per ton was installed and the drillers did a sufficent backfill, you may need to consider 200' per ton.  This can be achieved by adding a 1 1/4" loop the appropriate depth and tying directly into your header pipes.  We have done a few of these the last 2 or 3 years as other homeowners have had similiar problems as you are having.  This usually seems to take care of the problem.  I hope this helps you with your problem!

Thanks,

K. Amos Moses
[email protected]


RGTUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 07:20 AM

Steve,

My Waterfurance is a 3 to 6 ton spit system,  EZ072S11ADBSSA.  My house is 4200Sq.ft also.  We moved in Feb.06. We notice our problem Jun 06, Same as you, My KW usage is arround 4500KW winter and summer? The unit never goes off when it's hot?  I turn off the breakers and it resets and works for a while.  This unit is costing about $1200 more to operate per year!!!  We have been on our dealer and waterfurance for a year.  If you have not done so, We had to file a formal complaint to the state HVAC board.  Everyone I've talked to besides my installor and waterfurance tells me my duct work is to small. 14' round on a six ton unit.  We are at the point of taking our installor and waterfurance to court.  So, I feel your pain.
Regards,RGT



Steve5212User is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 03:25 PM

Thanks for the replies everyone.  A couple of points on the replies:

Soaking the ground may be an option if we do not get rain soon.  Also, I heat my water form the unit so I am wondering if I use up all my hot water in my tanks will it help cool the loop as it replenishes the hot water?  Any one have a suggestion on that?

My loop is horizontal and throughout my front yard so changing to a vertical or putting it deeper etc., is last resort.

It has been continually hot and dry so the problem persist!

The unit has worked great for 8 years so under reasonable summer heat it is fine - it is just this extreme heat and drought that has me zapped right now.  I am very pleased with the unit otherwise - just mother nature not cooperating.

Sounds like form all my research there is no fix - exception being to soak the ground where the loops are and I might try that next.

Thanks again for everyone's input!



RGTUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 04:36 PM
I have a vertical loop system and having the same problem, I know you checked your filter, how does the coil look. Dirt will get pass the filter. I,m just a home owner, I'm having to learn on my own.
Good luck, RGT


Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 05:30 PM
All you guys who are having cooling problems,  you need to find out what the loop temperature is coming out of the ground.  Your system should have a P/T port where you can insert a thermometer and check the temperature of the water coming out of the ground.  You can buy a thermometer from Fieldpiece called a pocketknife style thermometer.  If your loop is above 90°,  then your heat pump won't work.


If the ground is really dry,  then the heat transfer from the pipe to the ground is severely limited.  The first thing I would do is soak the ground.  Don't wait for rain.  Moist ground conducts heat far better than dry ground.

If the ground is moist and the loop temp is still high,  then your system is short looped.  You need more pipe in the ground to dissipate the heat.

Soaking the ground will only work on a horizontal system.  For a verticle system, your only option is to install more pipe in the ground, or install some kind of fluid cooler.



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Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 05:34 PM
Posted By Steve5212 on 08/26/2007 3:25 PM

.  Also, I heat my water form the unit so I am wondering if I use up all my hot water in my tanks will it help cool the loop as it replenishes the hot water?  Any one have a suggestion on that?


Buy heating more water,   you would lower the loop temp some.  I would definitely try soaking the ground.


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
Steve5212User is Offline
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26 Aug 2007 05:40 PM

Thanks - I'll get one of the themometers - loop length should be fine - never had a problem under normal conditions (normal being blistering heat in the summer) but this season is being ranked as a "100 year drought" with severe heat.  I'll try soaking the ground - I have an irrigation system that I can run that covers the area of the loop - just have to do it at night since we have water bans on.

Thanks again!



Steve5212User is Offline
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27 Aug 2007 09:33 PM

Just wanted to update everyone.  I decided to try and soak the ground and see if that works.  I was not sure how I was going to pull that off so I turned on the station of my irrigation system that covered most of the loop area.  I set it to go the max time of 99 minutes for four times during the night and then manually started it for 99 minutes twice this morning after we got up.  So after 6+ hours of watering the ground was pretty soaked.

It seems to work.  Last night I had to get up twice to re-set the unit but after a good night of soaking the ground plus this morning, today during the hottest part of the day it cooled the house down to 79 degrees and did so with some to spare as it did not run wide open the entire time.  I did have to re-set the unit one time about 1:00PM in the afternoon, but that is better than every couple of hours like we were before.  As of 9:30 local time it is running fine.

I am going to watch it over the next few days and if we do not get rain then I'll water again over night about every other night.  I'll have to take out a loan to pay my water bill but it is it worth it to be able to sleep at night and not be miserable during the day until we either get rain and/or cooler weather!

Thanks for the tip and I'll try and update again when I can!!



Palace GeothermalUser is Offline
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28 Aug 2007 12:05 AM
Steve,

Glad to hear that soaking worked. It should only get better as the water gets down to the level of the pipes. I am assuming the pipes are at least 5' down? It will take a few days for the water to soak down that far. Is your soil sand or clay?


Dewayne Dean

<br>www.PalaceGeothermal.com<br>Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%<br>We heat and cool with dirt!<br>visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system
RGTUser is Offline
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07 Jul 2008 02:42 PM
Steve,
How's it working now?
Regards, RGT


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