joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:370
 |
| 08/20/2008 12:32 AM |
|
First and foremost you should all know that I was blessed today by the smile of the most beautiful baby girl at Ben's house. As the dad of three teenage boys, a child's smile is seldom offered around my house.
With homeowner permission I wanted to share some of BGillett's observations in his search for a geo bid and solutions to his problems. Curiously of his half dozen estimates, I think I'm only the third with a measuring tape.
However, given my limited time this evening I hoped to make this a group heat load where I first asked your thoughts on Infiltration. My software asks for 1 of 3 choices.
While the house is of the 100 year old variety, it now has double pane windows, blown in insulation and siding over siding.
Do we consider this poor (such as old farm houses), average (such as '80's and 90's construction) or superior?
There is much more to tell, but in the interests of brevity, I'll start here,
Joe |
|
|
|
|
|
|
geodean
Registered Users
Posts:590
|
| 08/20/2008 12:38 AM |
|
| It still sounds like an old farm house to me. I would probably figure it as old farm house and average house and then take something out of the middle. |
|
Dewayne Dean
PalaceGeothermal.com
Why settle for 90% when you can have 400%
We heat and cool with dirt!
visit- http://welserver.com/WEL0114/- to see my system |
|
|
tuffluckdriller
Registered Users
Posts:411
|
| 08/20/2008 12:05 PM |
|
What type of blown in? If cellulose, then I'd figure average. If fiberglass, I'd figure like Dewayne says.
|
|
Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal, Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:370
|
| 08/20/2008 12:19 PM |
|
Good point Clark, cellulose is the insulation used in attic and downstairs walls part of the upstairs is still being constructed with 2X6's and will have R19 fiberglass.
I know this is a rudimentary start to what many of us already know, but I thought it might be helpful for folks making plans to go geo in other old homes.
For my purposes on this home I am going to select average for insulation reasons and because in a pinch we can upgrade if need be with caulk gun and storm doors.
The next thing Ben and I discussed is what to do as far as loading in his fireplaces and indoor grill (bacically a second 100 year old wood fireplace). The Gilett's would be happy to brick them shut to avoid the 8000ish thou btu/ea loss, I wondered if any one had some ideas on how best to avoid the load of a masonry fire place without permenantly disabling it. |
|
|
|
|
Brock
Registered Users
Posts:203
|
| 08/20/2008 1:17 PM |
|
| In our last house we had a nice Jotul wood burning stove. My parents like it and went to the place that installed ours and had them retrofit their old open fireplace to a modern high efficiency wood burning setup. Basically they put it inside the existing fire box, ran new pipes up the stack and sealed around them. Now it can actually warm the house instead of just that room while cooling the far ends of the home. If they want it open, I can't suggest anything, but putting a good insert in would be a positive move, personally I would do that before sealing it up. It gives them a backup heat option and a selling point in the future. |
|
Green Bay, WI. - geothermal heated indoor pool with a small solar setup |
|
|
engineer
Registered Users
Posts:394
|
| 08/21/2008 2:36 AM |
|
FineHomebuilding Mag recently profiled what looked to me to be an excellent closeable flue cap.
If one can stop or greatly slow the natural draft up an unused chimney flue, the heat loss is greatly reduced.
There is no happiness quite like that from a contented small child...I'm 43 but started late...now have 2 and 4 year olds.
|
|
Without data, you only have an opinion. |
|
|
tuffluckdriller
Registered Users
Posts:411
|
| 08/21/2008 8:44 PM |
|
| If using an insert as Brock suggests, I'd include a fireplace at average in the calculation. |
|
Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal, Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
|
|
dkiernan
Registered Users
Posts:29
|
| 08/22/2008 7:58 AM |
|
| I too have a fireplace in my house that I use maybe 5-6 times a year. I didn't want to block it or put a fireplace insert in so I made a removable plug to seal it off as best as I could when not in use. I made a template of the opening inside the chimney, just below the damper. It was basically rectangular tapering a little bit to the back. I then cut out a piece of R-12, 2" thick rigid foam using the template. I mounted a couple of handles on it on one side of the foam with a plywood backer strip on the other so the foam wouldn't break when I put it in and take it out. It is then wedged into place just below the damper. When I want to use the fireplace I just grab the handles and remove it, putting it back the next day when everything has cooled. I'm sure it isn't perfect, but it has to be helping. Total cost was just a few dollars and a half hour of my time. |
|
|
|
|
gregj
Registered Users
Posts:164
|
| 08/22/2008 5:01 PM |
|
| Wouldn't a blower door test be the way to determine infiltration? Is that a difficult/expensive test? |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:370
|
| 08/22/2008 11:31 PM |
|
Thanx all for feedback, the week really snowballed for me.
Greg, as you point out, the door test would determine exact infiltration, however the improvements aren't done yet and we only need to get within 12KBTU so estimation is reasonable.
I like DK's thoughts on the fireplace as well.
The next major source of heat loss at this house was floors over crawl spaces/basements. There is no chance that This basement will be turned into a rec. room. Plumbing is PEC's so while we don't want it to freeze, there's little chance of bursting. Floor joists vary.
What would be our best insulation choice? Or would you not insulate applying the protect the plumbing and heat rises theories. Remember we're in mid-MI.
J |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:370
|
| 08/25/2008 12:42 AM |
|
I've had a chance now to load Ben's pool area.
His budget suggests that we worry about heating the area only- first, which will take 5 tons by itself. Ventillation is sub-standard (thanks to local inspector ignorance). ERV is certainly on the radar, however the toggle controlled fan that exists is paid for. |
|
|
|
|
bgillett
Registered Users
Posts:12
|
| 08/25/2008 9:20 PM |
|
Just a quick question. (I haven't talked w/ Joe about this yet.) Do you guys think that a dx system would be a better bet for the pool area (air/water heat)? One of the crticisms of dx for the main house is the disparity between the heating and cooling loads and the inability (at least of earthlink dx) to do 2 stage operation. To me that isn't a concern for the pool b/c I won't need any cooling.
Just wondering.
Ben |
|
|
|
|
tuffluckdriller
Registered Users
Posts:411
|
| 08/26/2008 1:04 AM |
|
It would be an excellent choice.
On the house load, as long as an EarthLinked DX system isn't more than 2 times oversized on the cooling, it still performs with high efficiency, and does a great job at humidity removal. This is in the sizing requirements of an EarthLinked system, that the cooling capacity isn't more than double the cooling load. |
|
Clark Timothy (clark@pinksdx.com)
VP sales, Tuff Luck Geothermal Drilling
Geothermal, Heating and Cooling that's Dirt Cheap! |
|
|
engineer
Registered Users
Posts:394
|
| 08/26/2008 8:39 PM |
|
I emphasize great advantage of two-stage equipment's ability to better dehumidify. That Florida-centric concern is likely inappropriate for the upper midwest.
Another advantage of two-stage equipment is the quiet operation on low stage. That said, single stage units with soft start variable speed fans and correctly designed ductwork (limit peak duct and face air velocities and somewhat distance system blower from return grills) are probably OK outside of the dog's-breath-humid southeast.
some thoughts on blower door tests - I haven't had one done, but from what I hear, all the bath and range hood fan exhausts are blocked for the test so they don't obscure measurement of the infiltration of the construction details of the rest of the house.
Then when a blower door test on a foam or SIP or ICF (or any combination thereof) comes in really low, mechanical ventilation, an HRV or ERV is seen to be mandatory for indoor air quality. Meanwhile, 5 minutes after the blower test, all the range and bath exhausts are unsealed - don't all those result in considerable natural ventilation / infiltration even when not in use? I know they have little shutters and whatnot that close when fans are off, but they all seem loose and cheesey...
What is the real, day-to-day, (living in the house, running range and bath fans, opening and closing exterior doors, etc) ACH in a supposedly supertight home? |
|
Without data, you only have an opinion. |
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:370
|
| 09/01/2008 6:58 PM |
|
Sorry guys, our schedule is really filling-up as we approach fall.
First the DX question is rendered moot as the reach of both systems available to me will require vertical installation while the water source can go horizontal.
When all was said and done, Ben recieved suggestions from 4 to 7 tons for the house with only about 1/2 of us actually measuring it. Only one of us suggested horizontal loops as verticals are more convienient for the installer. Because of the resourcefulness of our loop installer, we should be able to meet Ben's requirements within his budget.
We currently have an engineer examining the pool and surrounding room requirements. While I have an intuitive solution in mind, I'm waiting for the numbers to support it.
Between this project and Senecarr's, I'm disgusted with my colleagues who throw numbers around without foundation.
Joe |
|
|
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:370
|
| 10/06/2008 12:33 AM |
|
If anyone is interested;
About a month after our last entry, We sat down tonight at Ben's house as dig is coming soon and surveyed our reserch on the pool and it's enclosure.
The house incidentally is going to use a 5 ton 2 stage which will have the capacity to cover the garage addition when it is completed.
Our duct work to the 2nd floor is enclosed in a chase Ben and I agreed upon adjacent to the basement stairs that gave us the oppurtunity for a housing for the additional return air we wanted to add.
Research and engineering advice on the pool enclosure however showed us that geo payback slowed considerbly as he has nat. gas.
Further, I began to worry that the 4K/yr projected operating cost made indoor pool more burden than joy in the Gillett family future.
When Ben asked about a wood boiler, I warmed to the idea immediately. I pride myself in a one size doesn't fit all philosopy, but didn't even contemplate this application.
As Ben is young and unitmidated by the labor, the wood boiler that heats the pool and the enclosure is a great idea, wish I thought of it.
j |
|
|
|
|
engineer
Registered Users
Posts:394
|
| 10/07/2008 12:06 PM |
|
When I was younger, similarly unintimidated and living 'norther' I heated a 3/2 townhouse with wood. Had an oil furnace but one tank lasted 3 winters.
I like the idea of wood for pool - kind of optional - want the pool warm, schlep the wood and fire up the boiler... |
|
Without data, you only have an opinion. |
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:487
|
| 10/08/2008 12:41 AM |
|
Posted By joe.ami on 08/22/2008 11:31 PM
The next major source of heat loss at this house was floors over crawl spaces/basements. There is no chance that This basement will be turned into a rec. room. Plumbing is PEC's so while we don't want it to freeze, there's little chance of bursting. Floor joists vary.
What would be our best insulation choice? Or would you not insulate applying the protect the plumbing and heat rises theories. Remember we're in mid-MI.
J
Remember, heat doesn't rise. Warm fluid rises, e.g., air & water. Heat moves up, down, sideways, north, south, whatever, in it's persistent quest to always go from warmer to cooler regions!! Heat will move from the warmth of the living space through the uninsulated floor to the crawl space or basement. If they are vented, or just plain leaky, the heat loss in that direction is significant. Take a hard look at sealing the crawl space and basement areas with insulation. This might be a really good place to use spray foam for its insulating value and air tightness. Generally speaking there is a lot less area to cover with crawl space walls than floor. Based on the heat load calcs I did on my house, equal R values under the floor and on the crawl space wall showed less total heat loss with insulated crawl space walls. Also, the heat loss through a basement wall into relatively warm earth will be less than through a floor into cold winter air.
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
joe.ami
Registered Users
Posts:370
|
| 10/11/2008 11:57 PM |
|
Finally... fired up Ben's heat pump Thursday on electric coil. As with so many old home projects, we had lot's of challenges along the way..... ducts through stone walls, locate a place for and install ducts to 2nd floor, sister floor joists in basement and support before new duct system and did I mention penetrating stone walls (God bless hired labor, I didn't feel a thing)?......
our airflow upstairs was remarkable. I love it when a plan comes together.
Dig is this week.
We are still researching best woodboiler and have yet to determine when to run duct to (former garage) addition (though we know how/where).
The way this is going I suggested that they set me a place at Christmas dinner.
J
|
|
|
|
|
Alex_in_FL
Registered Users
Posts:21
|
| 10/19/2008 4:51 PM |
|
Good on you Joe for doing a heat calculation. Is the pool a swim year round even or just to extend the swimming season? You can extend it considerably with a solar pool heater. Also, a cover is an absolute must unless it is a totally enclosed indoor pool. And even then a cover would help. As a pool owner, I strongly suggest an automatic pool cover (I have a manual bubble cover you can have that is lying in my back yard :) )
I know this is late but my parents have a glass cover across their fireplace with a grate and blower kit (this worked great!). It was recently changed out to a natural gas fireplace.
Keep us posted on progress / results! Great thread.
Alex |
|
|
|
|