We often offer advice here to folks with questions or concerns about their systems, but occasionally we forget to ask the right questions, or consider all details.

I want to remind the end consumer and contractors of a few points.

1) The last person to work on the heat pump is responsible for it's operation. In other words, don't change the way a system operates and then call your contractor when it doesn't keep up with the weather (a service call is about $80) and expect not to pay for his time.

2) Geo systems are darned inexpensive to operate. Saving 10% off a $500 gas bill is real money. 10% off a $75 electric bill is not much.

Always talk to your contractor before changing system operation.
Don't be too quick to redesign the wheel. Little is gained with out something else being given up.
Luck to all,
Joe

Sorry to bump my own thread but it seemed the best place to comment on the following;
Twice in the last week and more often in the last month, I've had to tell people to leave their aux coils on due to design conditions. Indeed in a recent thread we've had a site fan trying to figure out how to turn off his aux. coil and limit 2nd stage operation while voicing slow recovery concerns on a 4 degree set back.
It is irresponsible for us to suggest to people to do other than speak with their contractors before interfering with (yes-sabotaging) design.
Most recently a homeowner with an undersized unit and a drain problem on his open loop system is exacerbating his problem by turning off the aux. coil and operating the heat pump on 2nd stage 7/24. The temp achieved was 62* which he said was okay if he didn't run up his bill with electric back up.
I'll throw the gauntlet down here to my peers again; if you do not know the design conditions qualify your suggestions. Period.
A 2 stage heat pump with a 2 stage aux heater (4 stage) is way more efficent than a tampered with system that never achieves set point. Period.
I have suggested to many customers that they look here for info, and am reconsidering that position as I now have opinions from hundreds of miles away that I have to explain away to avoid problems with design.
Retrofits are often very tightly designed due to duct, site or other limitations. Many of these systems rely on 2nd or 3rd stage help. It'd be nice to see affirmation of this point.
Your call-
J

Joe,

You make a very valid point.

Most of the posters who come here are not lucky enough to have a reputable contractor like you who truly cares about his customers.

Some of them have been abandoned by their contractors, others have been lied to and some have been cheated.

A few of them have had such a bad experience that they never want to see the installer again and they are sorry they even heard about geothermal.

In a perfect world, we could say "check with your designer / installer " but the reality is... this is not always possible.

Some of them ask a seemingly innocent question and then we find out later that the question was actually loaded and we gave the wrong response.
Like the guy who asked about a installing 4 ton or 5 ton. Only later did we find out that he already have a 4 ton installed.

The question I have " is the geo community better or worse off with a forum like this where ideas and info can be exchanged"

Maybe we should come up with a standard disclaimer that is part of ever post? Would you be in favor of that?

After 15 years of living with a geo I have to agree. If you paid your hard earned dollars for system and your not happy with the performance than mess with the contractor not the system. When these things are designed right they are a delight.
After reading a few posts I have been baffled by some of the issues. The whole point of a geo to me is to avoid the limitations of an air based heat pump. Such as no heat below freezing. Your geo should work as well at 10 degrees outside as an air based system at 50 degress outside. Better in my opinion as soil should  transfer heat better than air. I also have concerns about retrofits without new ductwork. My contractor was obsessed with air flow turnover in the house. Every room has returns placed high on the inside wall and several registers on all possible exterior walls. I also have insulated ductwork. Geo is just part of the story. To me ALL heat pumps perform better in a well insulated home with good windows and for people with good habits. Don't stand holding the doors open when the sys is running ect. If your house doesn't meet these specs than you're contractor should have oversized the system to compensate for the shortcomings of the structure. Your contractor should be well educated in all factors that could affect the performance of the system they installed and taken the time to cover all of this step by step and show you your options. I realize we don't live in a perfect world, but that's what you paid the man for!

Good points. I think ths forum has taught me alot over the few days I've been here.
I work in a tech and const field but not hvac. But just like my field it is good bussiness for the manufacturers to make sure that they screen and train the folks that sell and install their products. More than one manufaturer has gone out of bussiness because their reps and contractors were crap and that reflected on their otherwise good product.  Word of mouth travels extremely fast when the customer is unhappy.  It's not a cheap or easy thing to accomplish in a field  where your product already costs alot more than the alternative technology that your customer is familiar with and you are trying to convince them that they'll get the money back over time. However in the long run it would help the companies and the industry.

We just came off a rash of folks apparently short-looped and clearly getting the runaround from their contractor and zero response from the manufacturer. They are talking to us only AFTER going round and round with the hack that installed their system. Units cutting out on low water temp, entering loop lines iced up - that's not competent design or installation.

That said, I agree that we should avoid second guessing competent designers, particularly in the case of systems in cold weather places where automatic operation of aux heat might be the only thing saving a house from frozen pipes and extensive water damage. Suggesting ways to minimize use of aux heat through careful thermostat configuration and usage would seem to me to be in bounds.

The problem, of course, is that the ramp-up of interest in geo, driven by both high (until recently) fossil fuel costs and now significant tax credits, is now bringing out of the woodwork all manner of hacks, scammers, charlatans, etc. just as solar did in the 1980s. Folks competent in 'regular' HVAC, either conventional air source units or fossil fuel, mesmerized by dollar signs, are jumping into geo with nary a clue as to what is required to deliver upon geo's promise. We seem to get both ends of the spectrum - customers whose energy bills have dropped by 2/3 and are tickled pink, and the unfortunates who laid out 5 figures for a geo system only to be chilly and slammed by inordinate electricity bills.

As for a disclaimer, I wince at the thought. None of us is getting paid to post here. That said, maybe some sort of site-wide disclaimer perhaps presented upon log-in would be in order - something along the lines of:

"...advice from unseen sources on the internet is intrinsically limited by the fact that members here are not required to be certified or licensed, no effort has been made to determine their credentials, motives or experience, and even the most experienced expert here is limited by the fact that he / she has not inspected your system in person. No warranty, express or implied is made as to the suitability or safety of advice given here. There is no substitute for obtaining the services of a competent contractor certified and licensed in your state who will inspect and evaluate your system in person in the course of serving you."

I've participated in forums spanning a wide variety of technical topics for 10+ years. I've not yet encountered a case where providers of free advice were blamed or held liable for a bad outcome. Absent actual malicious intent it is hard to imagine incurring liability for free assistance - seems a reasonable extension of the "good Samaritan doctrine"

This came up recently on an automotive forum I subscribe to. Someone posted a recent court decision that keeps web posters and the people who run these sites from being held responsible or liable for info posted on forums. At this time I couldn't find it of course.
I must have walked in on the tailend of this "rash". That would explain my confusion as to all the posts about aux heat that I would normally consider a non-issue.

I'm not suggesting a disclaimer or concerned with liability, I'd like to see folks get the best possible advice. Different climates have different realities and blanket statements are not useful.
I had my melt down due to a few problems in the last few weeks (here and in the field). There is a strong opinion repeatedly conveyed here that you are better off not running your aux. coil or second stage. That's bull. Particularly with closed loop.
By and large jobs are not designed with 100% geo in mind nor with 90% first stage in mind. If they are they are grossly over sized. As we discovered with the thread Dewayne refered to, usage and expectation did not agree; unfortunately that was after suggesting up sizing the system to a 5 or even 6 ton.
I'm suggesting the best possible advice, if the user isn't at odds with his contractor let's not put him there. If he is, then let's make sure usage or expectation are not the problem (by asking questions about design, climate, usage) before we agree.
For any one in my area right now with sub zero weather, your heat pump may run most of the time, your aux. coil will run as well, you will have a higher than average electric bill, you will save lots of money over propane or fuel oil.
J

Joe,

This all goes back to expectation. If you put two people together i will garauntee you that you will get two different expectations.
Specifically geo means different things to different people.
I have a problem in my market that geo is sold as being cheap to operate. It is the expectation that installing a geo system will make your electric meter run backwards!!!!
That is unrealistic and we all know it, yet it was the expectation. We as proffesionals are held to a higher standard and we should go accordingly. Some people on the internet are never" going to get it" no matter what we say. let's all move forward from here and be a place for information, not an internet service technician.
Eric