I'm in Maryland, 1700sq 2 story w/basement that is 18 years old with natural gas York 3 ton forced hot air w/AC and a NG Hot water tank ( all original when house was built)
I just replaced 17 windows with dbl pane low-e ones two months ago.

Reputable GT installer came out and measured/surveyed.  3 holes 180' deep and 15' from each other, 3 ton Envision.

Costs

aprox $22,000

But 30% fed tax credit ($6,000).
Then checking out http://www.dsireusa.org
$1000 per ton (up to 3) Maryland state grant (aka they write you a check when or if they get funded) ($3,000)
$5000 property tax credit in the county I live in for heat and AC
$1500 property tax credit if I put in a desuperheater.
(Note my propert taxes are $4k so the extra can be used the following year.

Potential 16k in fed/state/county aid.
If Fed is only $2,000 then 12K

My highest NG bill this winter was $200 a month along with $100 in electric.  $200 in electric in the summer is normal, it would be higher but I have a mini-split in the master bedroom for evening cooling.

I would have to wait until 2010 if I put in a EnergyStar NG w/AC furnance to get the the $1,500 tax credit as my windows got me the credit for 2009 (as I understand it)

Anyone want to fingure out a ROI?

CH

Forgot to mention that there is no state sales tax for GT/solar/wind and your property tax can not be increased due to the "value" that the GT system adds to your home value.

Not enough info to calculate ROI
We'd need manual J load- existing equipment- existing fuel costs- geo electric rate- design set points closest major city- diameter of vertical u-tubes- type of aux. heat- size and type of water heater and buffer tank if used..........
J

The proposal I received does not have all of that info.  Price includes a 50 gallon AO Smith storage tank.   I looked at my PEPCO bill (Washington DC metro area) and the

bare min info for a complete guess would be electric rate and cost per therm for ng

35% savings ( very rough assuming currunt is 80% and new would be 400 ) on heat (ng is cheap and your electric isnt )
which translates to 70 bucks a month on your 200 bill . If you where in my area that would mean a 4-5 hundred a year savings on heat and hot water
lets again guess of the 2 hundred summer bill 100 is due to ac and again lets guess that you have a 12 seer in good maintance you should expect a 40% reduction at least so another 40 for summer months call it 200 a year ok round up why not where guessing 700 a year savings
and again roughly 8-12 depending on rebates ( likely 8) on strickly buck for buck return , not factoring for increasing fuel or utility costs , the cost of having to replace/repair your current equipment in that time , or equity . chances are if you factor the above you be 5 years or less
not to mention I took some real big leaps there about anual winter gas bill and annual summer electric -100 for each month as base

Strictly speaking, Joe's right about more info needed for ROI, but my gut guess is that it is an absolute no brainer if all those subsidies turn out to be the real deal.

Hoepfully this will help aned the cut-n-paste looks ok


Gas bill is read middle of month 
Electric is near end of month      
Price to Compare (generation and Trnsmission Services      
10.96 per kwh 12 month average according to Bill      
                                     
                      Gas         Gas     Electric     Electric     Days
                      Therms     $     Kilowatts     $      
      2009-02      106      218      640         104       30
     2009-01       89        187      580           95       33
     2008-12       54        122      450           75       33
     2008-11       28         68       620         101       32
     2008-10       7           27       890         153       29
     2008-9         7           24     1040         177       29
     2008-8         6           20     1390         230       33
     2008-7         8           23     1160         190       29
     2008-6         12         30       520           86       30
     2008-5         17         38       510           79       29
     2008-4         39         76       550           83       32
     2008-3         78       133       590           91       30
     2008-2         95         50       560           87       27
     2008-1         87       150       610           93      

Your electricity is expensive and I don't know if you have a geo discount. If not, your savings is likely to be as GF describes. If you just look at raw dollars I would guess <10 years.
If you look at some other things...such as helping the economic stimulus (your contractor is a local consumer/employer...help the wheels turn) or how about telling us how many investments you have that are approaching 10% ROI (I'm sure it beats anything in your 401K)...I think we're approaching no brainer status.
I'm also curious why your bidding contractors didn't think it was worthwhile to answer this question for you. They should have enough data to give you a more reasonable estimate than our wild guesses.
good luck,
J

What I don't hear mentioned on the forum is the real increase in enjoyment that you get from not having the noisy, ugly AC unit running all summer. That was one of the main reasons I put in GS. We can sit on the deck without the noise, not worry about the lawn mower throwing trash in the condensor or looking at an ugly piece of equipment. It's a real quality of life issue for us.

I agree with you arkieoscar. I would have paid a few grands for taking the flames out of my basement.

ROI is not a proper metric here, because:

1- A GSHP is a durable consumer good, it is not an investment.

2- There is no return, no payback, GSPH costs less to run, comparable to a new car with high MPG and low maintenance vs a clunker.

3- There are subjective but influential decision criteria like arkieoscar's and mine, which ROI does not even attempt to evaluate.

That said, CH, based on your numbers I estimated an annual savings of $630, roughly 45% of your current heating / AC cost if you replace your old furnace and AC with the Envision, assuming everything else (weather, electric and gas rates, thermostat setpoints, ...) stays the same as the past twelve months, for next year. I completely disregarded the change in cost of providing hot water.

CH, if your hot water tank and your HVAC system are more or less at the end of their useful lives (you mentioned the possibility of replacing furnace and AC with EnergyStar NG furnace and AC and possible $1500 tax credit in 2010), the operating cost of your current system becomes irrelevant. The issue will become a competition game of initial and operating $ of geo vs those of a new NG & AC system, of which we have not heard.

If subsidies cut your net install cost to $6000, then GSHP is almost a giveaway. Many people paid real money at full market value for them last year.

Regards, Masoud

Unfortunately people mostly aren't willing to put their money forward for the quiet unit, or the gas-free unit until it's too late. They don't think it's that big of deal until they aren't comfortable with their already installed fossil fool system.

Thanks everyone for your comments and now I see ROI is not what it's about. I looked at the proposal (yes I need to find some other GT Contractors in the Wash DC Area) and the drilling along is approx 6k (3 180foot holes). I found this forum from a post on hvac-talk (that board drive me crazy but that is another thread ;)

So now the question: can you have too many holes? I read that 45 pages long thread on the other forum about ETW (or something) and being "short-looped".
Should the wells be in parrallel or in seires?

The incentives are amazing but the state one (1k per ton max 3k) is underfunded and there is a waiting list. I wish instead of a grant (aka they send you a check) I would just like a credit off my State income tax.

The other thing I was thinking about last night... Solar, at some point the $ per watt will get reasonable enough so I could supplement the electric I use for the GTHP ;)


The other can of worms is DX vs. Water.....  hummmm

CH

IMO,
Pick the best contractor for the job first and the product second.
I didn't mention comfort issues in my responses as it was not part of your original thread question, but I do get very positive comfort feed back as well.

CH-

One other thing to note on putting in a high efficiency furnace & ac: The 30% credit for energy efficiency improvements up to $1500 which you are using for your windows this year is a total cap for 2009 and 2010 combined. If you use it all this year on the windows, you won't get anything for a putting in a high efficiency furnace next year.

- Marty

Marty, I keep rereading the tax credits and I'm not 100% sure its $1500 per year or just a one timer within those 2 years. I'm arranging for a DX installer to come out this week.

Per year would be much better, but everything I've read so far indicates that it's a total credit for 2009 & 2010. However, we won't get the final word until we see the IRS interpretation of the law when they release the 2009 form.

Here's what's on the EnergyStar website about the tax credits:
http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?c=products.pr_tax_credits#s1
The third bullet states:
$1,500 is the maximum total amount that can be claimed for all products placed in service in 2009 & 2010 for most home improvements, EXCEPT for geothermal heat pumps, solar water heaters, solar panels, fuel cells, and windmills which are not subject to this cap, and are in effect through 2016

I f you can get all that savings, then might be a good deal for you. I'm in MD also, I don't think my county offers any incentives. Heck, I can't even get any dealers to even give a quote. One did come out, still waiting for the quote. I contacted a couple DX dealers, haven't heard from them yet either.
I think a geo system will actually increase my electric bill.

Everyone, for alt energy incentives the place to go is  http://www.dsireusa.org/

Buckeyegreen, I know my electric will go up in the winter but hopefully less than my combined electric/gas.   I'm confident my Summer electric use would be less that my old builder's grade AC that will turn 18 this September.

CH