robkindovernh
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| 08/19/2009 10:26 PM |
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| I bought new construction last november, and part of this new construction was a 5-ton Climate Master Genesis pump and dump system.
My water quality is terrible. I have tried to get the HVAC company to give me feedback on it, and thy ahave failed to reply to several requests. I am concern that this was installed by the builder with no concern for appropriateness or suitability.
Can anyone here provide some insight as to wether or not I am in a world of trouble with this system based on my water quality.
My water reports are available at:
http://www.robkeller.com/water_filter/
they are the 3 pdf files labeled watertest1-3.
If you are curious, you can see the monster of a filtration system it takes to treat the household water.
thanks for any feedback on this.
rob |
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engineer
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| 08/20/2009 7:14 AM |
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| Compare your test results with guidelines published by heat pump manufacturer. Heat exchanger fouling manifests itself initially via higher operating costs / reduced efficiency, then loss of capacity, and finally lockouts owing to inadequate heat transfer |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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robkindovernh
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| 08/20/2009 9:20 AM |
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| I did compare my tests with the manual, and I find it is out of spec. I have no idea how severe it is though, as I don't know how this stuff works. I find it very frustrating that I may have paid for technology that should not have been installed, and that the people who did the installation cannot or will not give me a straight answer about this.
Perhaps the people at northeast geo will be interested in telling me more in an effort to get my business.
Is this something that can be mitigated with annual servicing?
thanks,
rob |
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engineer
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| 08/20/2009 3:09 PM |
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Heat exchangers can be backflushed / acid washed to remove scale.
I'd want baseline / benchmark unit current readings to help guage the extent of the problem, if any, and the effectiveness of service. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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jonr
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| 08/20/2009 7:09 PM |
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I take it that the concern is iron and not hardness?
Generally, dissolved iron needs oxygen to precipitate out. It's not clear to me where oxygen would come from in an open loop system. Other factors are pressure and temperature changes.
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engineer
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| 08/21/2009 4:48 AM |
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| Oxygen is available in open water - ask any fish |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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gspike
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| 08/21/2009 4:19 PM |
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Just out of curiosity, what would you use to acid wash the heat exchanger ? Warm acetic or maybe a dilute solution of something stronger?
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jonr
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| 08/21/2009 7:37 PM |
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Open loop as in from a well. Very little oxygen is available.
I've heard of using citric acid. |
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Down2Earth Geothermal
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| 08/21/2009 7:55 PM |
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Your water quality is indeed well below the necessary quality standards required by manufacturers. Specifically of most concern are the iron content (which causes iron bacteria growth) and the high turbidity at 70+NTU related to suspended particles. Water like this has been used for geothermal applications in the mine-water arena but the heat exchangers don't tend to last too long.
Your best bet is to switch to closed loops.
-Adam
Hydrogeologist
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robkindovernh
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| 08/22/2009 9:40 AM |
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I heard from the rep at the comapny that handled the design of my system on this yesterday. He tells me that the concern with iron is iorn bacteria, which I do not have a problem with, and that the nature of my iron content is not an issue. He also tells me:
"We have reviewed the water tests results you provided us. The mineral content in your well system is acceptable for the cupronickle heatexchangers. Your equipment is under full factory warranty."
The system has been running fine since installed about 10 months ago.
Anyone think I need to push back on this issue with them? |
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waterpirate
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| 08/23/2009 6:44 AM |
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Hi Rob and welcome,
The short answer is to get baseline data collection now. I will assume that the system is operating to your satisfaction i.e. energy consumtion vs. indoor temps?
I have seen many systems that were within specs for water quality fail horribly, and ones that are out of specs operate flawlessly for years. It really is a crap shoot.
With data you can monitor your system and look for declines in performance and turn a little warning sign into a simple service and avoid the dreaded lock out or failure.
Have you opened up a dialog with the company that drilled your well? If not you should. Ask them what their experiance has been, should you be concerned, and what warranty if any you have on water production/rejection.
Do not look for a problem that is not there. and may never come. Just keep watch, enjoy your new home.
Eric Sackett
weberwelldrilling.com |
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Eric Sackett
WeberWellDrilling.com |
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jonr
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| 08/23/2009 8:44 AM |
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| I agree. I'd get a couple of digital thermometers to watch the temperature delta and also set up valves to make acid flushing easy. |
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Down2Earth Geothermal
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| 08/23/2009 12:35 PM |
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I didn't see any iron bacteria test in your water analysis. Did you have that test done elsewhere? Also, if you read the water quality guidelines from climatemaster (http://www.climatemaster.com/downloads/97B0046N03.pdf) there is also a concern with iron deposition where the oxygen levels exceed 0.5 mg/L. However, you will have to measure oxygen at the water source to get this value (can't send it off to a lab). The problem with iron or iron bacteria is fouling of the heat exchanger. In this case the solution is that you would just have to clean it out with an acid wash periodically.
The second concern for your water according to climatemaster is the total particulates which need to be less than 10 ppm for supply and less than 1 ppm for reinjection. Your high turbidity at 70+ NTU points to a lot of suspended particles. Turbidity is a measure of the amount of light refracted when shined through water and is measured in nephelometric turbidity units but there is no direct conversion to the ppm units that climatemaster wants so you really have to do a filtration test to get the total particultes in ppm. The particles cause damage via scouring and clogging that isn't as simple as cleaning it out.
I would suggest doing the above water quality tests and/or share what you know now with climatemaster to see what they say. I would also get a guaranteee in writing from the designer/distributor that said it's covered since climatemaster may not agree.
-Adam
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engineer
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| 08/23/2009 8:23 PM |
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Waterside EWT / LWT measurements of Delta-T alone won't suffice.
In cooling mode as the heat exchanger scales up from bad water it'll initially still transfer close to the same amount of heat, albeit at ever-increasing compressor discharge pressures and amps. Eventually capacity will be reduced, but that effect may hide from waterside delta-T measurements as the compressor's own power increases as a fraction of total rejected heat. Decreased unit capacity will manifest itself in reduced airside delta-T as well as lessened dehumidification, assuming airflow is maintained, and that isn't always easy to prove or safe to assume.
In heating mode, a scaled exchanger would cause both waterside and airside Delta-T to drop, along with capacity and power consumption.
In both modes you'll experience increased power consumption per unit of cooling / heating delivered, but that can be hard to pin down without a power submeter and careful attention to heating or cooling degree days. |
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Without data, you only have an opinion. |
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jonr
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| 08/24/2009 9:30 AM |
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I have no opinion as to an easy way to measure heat exchanger effiency in cooling mode, but
Refrigeration & air conditioning technology
By William C. Whitman, William M. Johnson, John Tomczyk
explicitly say that water delta-t will be reduced in heating and cooling modes.
Any thoughts as to how true this is:
"The ClimateMaster heat exchanger is unique in that it is compliant and as the
temperature of the refrigerant gases changes as much as 140 F over the annual
winter-to-summer period, the movement of the flutes, see figure, break away any
scaling and any iron bacteria occlusions. We have never had the need to descale
or otherwise clean iron (or its accompanying manganese) from any heat
exchangers in the past 29 years."
http://www.northeastgeo.com/pdf/tb2/tb1607.pdf
(10,000 installs - note they are not discussing hardness scaling)
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joe.ami
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| 08/24/2009 10:13 AM |
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Well if somebody wrote it it must be true;)
(it is true though that thermal shock can breakaway scale. It can be done by changing position on reversing valve during cycle. This may be what they are talking about.) |
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Just a Mechanic;
Geothermal; Savings Underfoot |
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Alex_in_FL
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| 09/01/2009 4:54 PM |
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I think a lot of people are scared of open loop systems just because they have little or no experience with them and they have been installed without checking water quality.
Your water looks fine except for the iron content. Remember that the standard they are listing is for drinking water (i.e. less than 1 cancer death per million people that drink the water every day for 70 years). You are not drinking the water nor is your GSHP. The name "Turbo Soft" sounds like a company that sells water filters. If so keep in mind that they don't make any money unless they sell a filter unit. Thus they will highlight anything over the limit.
There are several products that remove iron (HomeDepot has one you connect to your lawn sprinkler system). Keep in mind also that if the iron in the water is going to readily oxidize (rust) due to the oxygen level in the water - it would have already done so. If you get high levels of oxygen in the unit then iron build up will not be the problem - it will be corrosion.
Thats my two cents (and probably too many words) but hope it helps.
Alex |
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robkindovernh
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| 09/03/2009 9:56 PM |
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The water tests were conducted at labs recommended by a water filtration specialist that I trusted, for purposes of designing a household water filtration system. The water was beyond undrinkable, it was ruining every plumbing fixture in the house. THis is the test for the water I would be drinking.
The highlights are made by the filtration consultant for purposes of discussing the household water filtration system. I have no complaints about my household water. It is beautiful and delicious now, and no longer stains everything it touches.
I think I am feeling comfortable with my situation. Between talking with my Geo designer, and the fact that the water is actually quite low (and thus acidic). This low pH is said to be beneficial by my Geo designer, and seems to be supported by the acid wash comments here.
As for iron bacteria, I was asked to evaluate the buildup in the toilet tanks by my water filtration guy. He told me if theree was iron bacteria present, I would be able to tell, as it would be slimy (I think this is what ewe did, it was 10 months ago). Anyway, based on him walking me through some local observations of the water, and asking me specific questions about it, he was confident I did not have an iron bacteria problem, and thus we did not spend the extra money to test for it.
Thanks for all the input.
rob |
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Bergy
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| 09/03/2009 10:59 PM |
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Rob;
Every heat pump manufacturer publishes water quality requirements. Have your water tested to those standards. PH is very important, acidic solutions for back washing are NOT run through the unit 24/7. Someone "feeling" confident won't keep your warranty intact.
Bergy
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jonr
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| 09/04/2009 12:51 PM |
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Iron deposits in the toilet is a good negative indicator if you aren't treating the water. But it also introduces oxygen, so if there were iron deposits in the toilet, it would not mean that a sealed heat exchanger would have scaling.
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