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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 08/06/2001 4:59 PM |
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Are storm shelters, simple foundations and small residential homes to complicated for a DIY installation? Given the facts as follows:
1. The forms sold are offered with tech support.
2. The bracing & alignment system is provided and used according to mfg. specs.
3. A detailed working drawing is provided, including framed openings, rebar placement, and other useful info.
4. The forms are inspected prior to the pour.
5. The DIY'er is using most of the tools of the trade, including foam glue.
6. The DIY'er has built several small building & remodeling projects prior to taking on the ICF project.
I know this question has been asked atleast a dozen times on this site, and many other sites, however, with all of the new members that log on, it would be useful to hear their input, and input from any successful (and not so successful) DIY'ers or product re-sellers.
The reason for the request, a Merchandise Manager and Buyer for a large Homecenter chain has asked me to comment, and I gave my two cents (some here think its worth less than that) so please, if you have any input, lets hear it.....
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Greg Swob
Registered Users
Posts:8
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| 08/06/2001 6:56 PM |
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| My first several ICF projects were in fact, storm shelters. Then progressed onto 'the real deal (complete dwellings). I had an instant zeal for ICF products when I first heard of them coupled with the fact I couldn't afford my own forms and renting was a hassle. I would also suggest adding 'safe rooms' to the list, as described in some FEMA literature, although, not everyone lives in 'tornado alley' obviously, but these would be good projects to get a DIY person's feet wet with, along with simple foundations, etc. A number of ICF makers have even captitolized on the safe room concept to some level. Along with a degree of assistance provided by the supplier's rep, the DIY person's level of skill and ability to understand the concepts will be the final determining factors, so no hard set rule there. I don't see how a simple foudnation would be too complicated for many DIYer's, while others should stick to nothing more serious than helping make a Cub Scout pinewood derby car. That is true to any project. Most makers have excellent videos, well detailed installation manuals and other sources of information. Any first time user should have a good degree of follow-up or on the job guidance no matter if he's a pro or seasoned DIY before the project gets started or is too far along to correct. ICF's as any product need to be installed in a proper professional manner, period. Is this retailer planning to stock ICF and sell off the shelf? I suppose it's a matter of time before that will no doubt happen. For example, I-Joists used to be custom order only, now available off the shelf in some retailers. Greg |
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365
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 08/06/2001 9:10 PM |
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I have nothing against people building their own projects, and have done precisely what you have outlined with a number of individuals. The basic problem I have with ICF's being wholesaled to the public through large commercial chains like we all know and love is that, time is money. You will not get people renting bracing, going to the job and inspecting the job before pouring, and the number of other things you have mentioned are safeguards against failures. I know people pretty well and most tend to want to cut corners both in the retail end of things and on the customer side. Time is money and what I have found in trying to do just as you have prescribed is that only about 20% will stay with the program and the safeguards. Once the forms get to the clients hands, how can you tell him what to do with them. The problem comes in that once a project turns into a semi failure, the ICF industry as a whole gets a bad name.
I have had two clients cancel their projects with me this summer because of witnessing bad installs by other ICF's. You put ICF's out there in the hands of to many novices, not either adhearing to or getting the things you mentioned, and everyone will suffer. Things like gluelams, and I joists are easily fixed if you screw up. ICF's in the hands of most novices will not stay on small projects like storm cellars but be used on any and everything imaginable by the purchaser. Some of these things which should be engineered will go unengineered. I think the concept is great, it's the execution that is the problem. The devil is in the details and anyone in this industry for any length of time knows how bad installs can curse and area for years. It should be interesting if nothing else. |
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 08/06/2001 9:55 PM |
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I am sure there are many opinions about the idea of selling form units at retail level.
It is true many DIY'ers are installing forms, with or without support from the mfg reps.
I know of several instances of reps being at the job site, and the project still went left of center.
The specifc information regarding a DIY'er who has used ICF's for a small storm shelter or simple foundation project is key here, prefer not to get to a point here in this thread of debates over the issue of HomeCenter Retail vs. Dealer Network....Thank you.
Edited by - icfdesign on 08/06/2001 21:58:04 |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 08/07/2001 2:00 PM |
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Dave:
We have a formula that seems to work, for DIY's. Its a bit complicated at our end, but the on site goes as follows.
The DIY simly follows a block and rebar pattern which is numbered and color coded, with all the blocks and rebar pre-cut, and the scaffolding and bracing locations pre-layed out. We then go in and inspect, then stay and help with the pour, which is the only problem area we have discovered to date using this method, which has ranged from retaining walls to churches.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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365
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 08/09/2001 8:38 AM |
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| Mark I agree with you. Up to the time of the pour, you can fix a multitude of sins. I agree, being there at the start and finish are the key. |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 08/09/2001 6:04 PM |
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818:
By start and finish, do you mean help them on site to learn how to stack block, or start to finish with the pour only.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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reljr
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 08/09/2001 6:27 PM |
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| Depends on your skill and desire. I built my own home with no/little construction background. I did read everything I could get my hands on and I attended a BlueMaxx installer's course (though I ended up using a different block). I later became a ICF dealer (not one any more) and saw many folks do their own homes successfully. Read, understand, ask questions, and take your time. It's not rocket science. |
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reljr
Registered Users
Posts:4
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| 08/09/2001 6:27 PM |
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| Depends on your skill and desire. I built my own home with no/little construction background. I did read everything I could get my hands on and I attended a BlueMaxx installer's course (though I ended up using a different block). I later became a ICF dealer (not one any more) and saw many folks do their own homes successfully. Read, understand, ask questions, and take your time. It's not rocket science. |
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Ian ICF Builders
Registered Users
Posts:612
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| 08/09/2001 8:30 PM |
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Hey Reljr: I noticed in your post that you mention that you WERE a dealer but NOT ANYMORE... Care to elaborate? Just curious. If you want, email direct.
ian@ICFHomes.com TIA |
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