IConForm
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| 08/20/2001 1:55 AM |
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I'm building an ICF house 2,200sq.ft., 3 levels including walkout basement using Amvic, haven't settled on a contractor yet. Want a stone exterior, although it's well suited to ICF I have moved away from cultured stone types because of lack of proven history for longevity (I was willing to live with the "fake" look.) Now my problem is how to support a stone face. My architect (and I) don't like the stepped out brick ledge or angle iron solution (bad engineering), and now I'm thinking about using a separate wall of CMU's or similar on the outside of the foundation to transfer the weight down onto the footing. The architect suggested using an extra thick conventionally formed foundation below grade with conventional insulation on the walls (inside and outside or both) and placing the ICF and stone on this. The sloping grade of course complicates this somewhat. Is there another ICF system out there where the concrete is around 12" thick which could be used for the below grade level on top of which I could place the Amvic system? This would still create a step in the wall the thickness of the exterior insulation. Anybody had any experience with this? Any other suggestions? I would really like to stick with the Amvic system. I'm building on the north shore of Lake Erie - severe winters, hot summers.
This is a great website, I've been lurking since Jan. or so. Thanks in advance. Best regards - Brian.
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Rick
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| 08/20/2001 10:41 AM |
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| Brian, FORMTECH offers a block that expands to 12 inches. Please visit our website www.formtechsys.com or call toll free 877-848-6155 for more info. |
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365
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| 08/20/2001 5:41 PM |
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| I built a 7000 sq. foot home in Dallas Texas a number of years ago and the stone used was a cultured "fake stone" the owner has had no problems over the years and the job looks great. I used the Austin Rock look. I can't recall the manuf. of the stone right off the bat but could find out for you if you are interested. If you would like me to email you pictures of the job contact me at fbi@apex2000.net I will even send you photos because I am completly sold on the concept. I will be applying it to my house in Midland Texas very soon. I used the cultured stone because my walls would have been 16- 17 inches thick by the time I was done putting real austin stone on my house. |
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panelbuilt
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| 08/25/2001 5:38 PM |
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Look into The TF system at tfsystem.com. It can be used as a vertical forming system as well as a horizontal forming system and is great for below grade applications. It would work well with the situation you have described.
It is our ICF of choice due to cost of product, low labor costs and ease of use.
An extremely well priced and flexible ICF system.
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 08/25/2001 8:45 PM |
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| We have used the AMVIC 6" system from footings to eave, oversized the footing, stacked concrete block on the brickledge (created along with the footing) up to grade, then regular brick/stone from there. We have also used the "fake stone" and "fake brick" with more "you're kidding, that isn't real" than people that noticed that it wasn't real. We have also used Formtech 14" concrete for the below grade areas, stepped with the grade, placed monostraps along the top of the formtech and stacked AMVIC up an additional 38'. The Formtech is the brickledge for real river rock. I believe some pictures of this application are on our website listed under the "Colorado" projects. Lots of luck, any of the methods should work sufficiently for your project, this is probably more of a cost exercise than it is performance in my opinion. Ian |
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IConForm
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| 08/26/2001 1:06 AM |
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Thankyou everyone for many good solutions.
Ian, I'm curious - when you stack concrete block on the footing up to grade how do you transfer the side force of the backfill to the ICF? Do you stack the blocks in intimate contact with the ICF, leave a small air space with some sort of connections? Also, I would guess that the waterproofing membrane (or whatever ends up being used) would start at the footing, come up the outside of the block wall, pass over the top of the block wall, but under the brick/stone, then up the backside of the brick/stone to contact the ICF for a few inches? If this is the case then I assume a membrane capable of supporting the full weight of the brick/stone must be used. Also, I guess in this scenario it would be acceptable to have the first course or so of brick/stone below grade for a neater finished appearance? Thanks Ian. Regards - Brian.
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 08/26/2001 10:30 AM |
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| Brian: Yes, the block is usually tight to the ICF wall. The waterproofing is applied as you described...at the top of the wall, it is applied to the ICF up about 12" above the block. The membrane should be firmly attached to the ICF so that it doesn't fall off over time. Weep holes are still necessary above grade level, so if you set the first courses of brick below grade, it too must have a solid mortar backing up as high as the weep holes...otherwise moisture could pool behind the brick on the membrane and possibly freeze...causing major problems. |
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IConForm
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| 08/26/2001 11:49 PM |
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Ian - Good point about the solid mortar backing below the weep holes - I'll discuss this detail with the architect and the contractor.
I guess that this particular application restricts my choice of membrane - looks like the waffle type which I originally intended to use would be unsuitable for being crushed under the weight of the stone/brick at the ledge. My second choice for membrane was a type which has a putty-like tar about 1/8" thick or so sandwiched between plastic sheet which is adhered to the foam wall. It would seem to me that this would not provide a solid enough substrate either but would "ooze down" under the weight of the brick/stone, making this membrane unsuitable as well. Any suggestions for a quality membrane well-suited for this application?
Thanks again - Brian. |
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 08/27/2001 6:21 AM |
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| Brian: The membrane that you are talking about is referred to as a "peel and stick". It should perform well for your application. Use a termination bar at the top of the membrane to keep it from peeling off behind the brick veneer. You may be able to use some of the spray on types as well. The dimpled plastic sheet is not typically a waterproofing membrane since it would not serve well if the water level in the ground exceeded the height of the bottom of the wall. The dimpled plastic would be good to use as a backfill protection course and as a suitable drainage layer over the membrane. |
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markross
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| 08/27/2001 7:44 PM |
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Iconform:
Take not the chance in Canadian frosty weather, water in the 4" block facing will freeze/thaw and generate a rapid breakdown of the block without a proper weeping space behind the block itself. remember the frost depth and what it will do, and the fact that the normal heat loss through a concrete or block wall is not there to reduce the frost depth down the outside of the foundation wall.
There are several other alternatives, I am sure that Amvics new 10" form is going to be available soone, or go through the engineering and use an 8" basement to 4" upper story, so long as the engineer is comfortable with the design.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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IConForm
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| 08/28/2001 12:36 AM |
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Ian - That's the answer I really like - using both the membrane and the waffle together. Can I set the stone/brick directly on the peel-and-stick though? Seems like an aluminum flashing or such would work better on the brick ledge and could be overlapped (shingle fashion) with the membrane coming up the outside of the block wall and the short bit joining with the above-grade foam (at the termination bar).
Mark - Great article about you in Canadian Homes!
I'm hoping to break ground with the spring thaw and wanted to have all the details worked out well before then. So, I've emailed Amvic to ask about their 10" block. This would be a very good solution although a 10" block really only exposes 1 1/2" of concrete and 2 1/2" of foam to support the stone/brick under a 6" block. I would guess that in practice the top portion of the foam would be cut away and formed out at an angle to widen the ledge?
I don't think the 8" to 4" would work for my application because the stone/brick will be at grade level at the walkout side - meaning 3 stories of 4" block from there on up. Would probably make an engineer nervous.
Best regards - Brian.
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 08/30/2001 1:59 PM |
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Brian: Run the membrane over the top of the block and up the ICF wall. If you are concerned about the brick/stone sitting on the membrane, you shouldn't have to worry. If you are looking for more insurance, you can run flashing over the membrane starting on the ICF wall down across the top of the block and bent down over the exposed side of the block. With the membrane on the outside of the concrete block with the dimpled drain protection course on top of that, I don't think you will have any trouble with water penetration into the block that could freeze/thaw and break the block down as Mark suggests.
Ian |
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markross
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| 09/03/2001 10:07 AM |
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Ian:
I am very sorry to contradict in this matter, however I have installed a brick facing in this way, and found out this year that the lower block filled with water which froze and cracked it this last spring. During the winter it was fine until the spring days warmed up the brick enought to start the melting process. Apparently the cores filled with about 12" of water and the cold night times of a Canadian springe froze the water in a couple of cores causing several blocks in one area to spall thier facings and fail, which resulted in the mortar joints seperating in the brick, when the support block moved slightly in the spalled areas. Hope this helps, and I dont mean to start anything here.
Mark Ross
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Mark Ross
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 09/03/2001 5:24 PM |
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Mark: So you waterproofed the exterior of the block? If so, then essentially what you are saying is that the basement wasn't waterproofed--Your application failed. The process I am describing waterproofs the block wall (and ICF wall) from the footing level (presumably well below frost level) up to at least 12" above grade. The waterproofing should be applied to the exterior of the concrete block, across the block or brick at some point just above grade level (just above the membrane at this point, weep holes need to be in the block/brick)and up the side of the ICF wall above grade. If you had a problem with this, then you should be investigating moisture intrusion into the basement as well and more possibly, moisture intrusion above grade. ICF walls are not waterproof. In my opinion, an ICF wall will show water intrusion much faster than a conventionally poured in place wall. If the installation is done correctly (as we have done using this method in the past) I wouldn't worry at all. I don't see how water entered the block if the block was totally waterproofed unless it was installed to fail, so maybe we are talking about two distinctly different methods here. Please reread my posts to clarify.
Ian |
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markross
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| 09/05/2001 8:43 AM |
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Ian, again respectfully.
The installation was an ICF foundation and upper wall building, Waterproofing membrane applied to exterior, and used as flashing for brick, with additional metal flashing provided, the entire perimeter up to the rafters was covered. I do not know the exact means of how the water entered the block but our solution was to fill and reinforce the block cores, seems to be working. I have no idea how or where the water is entering the cores, but it built up over time. I guess that when we consider that every roof eventually leaks, and every ship eventually sinks, that we cannot build a structure totally impervious to water or moisture. Henchforth I have changed to drainscreen technology to ensure that if water gets in, it can then get back out.
What are your thoughts on these matters?
Mark Ross
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Mark Ross
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 09/08/2001 9:34 PM |
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Waterproofing membrane = 1st line of defense
Waterstop in cold joint = Secondary line of defense
Dimpled drain board on top of everything = Requirement to not only protect the membrane at the time of backfill, but to protect the membrane from being pulled down the wall (causing wrinkles in the membrane that typically leak) and act as a drainage mat allowing water etc. to make it's way down to the french drain at the footing level. If these steps are followed, and they are installed with respect to every detail, the wall will not be breached by water. In the event that it is not well detailed, it will leak. The drainage mat is not waterproofing, it is damp proofing....big difference. If we are unsure of the particulars of how to waterproof a specific project, we ask an engineer....perhaps that is what should be done in this case.
Ian |
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icfdesign
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| 09/08/2001 11:08 PM |
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Ian & Mark,
Just curious what type of Engineer would address this issue? Civil Engineer? Structural Engineer? Architect? Enviromental Studies Engineer? Serious question not just for myself, perhaps others?
As for the waterproofing membrane, I have witnessed the "dimpled board" type sheets to have seams that are very difficult to seal in our Ohio freeze-thaw cycle. The "dimpled board" tends to pull away from the wall surface and leak water into the below grade wall assembly. Cutting & Fitting the "dimpled board" into place is easy enough, however fitting around uneven foundation surfaces, including different heights of below grade wall assemblies tend to add to the failure rate.
A 100% polymer rubber spray membrane, using a high density mineral type board as a drainage board/backer against the membrane works well, and the uneven surface can be caulked at the joints and the mineral board applied right after the heat/spray material is applied.
Peel n Stick with dimpled board may work great in the non-deep freeze climates of the world, but here in buckeye country, the method I have described has also worked well without failure for many, many years....
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 09/09/2001 10:13 AM |
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If only one method and one product could fulfill such a requirement, then perhaps only one product and one method would be available. Typically, the structural engineer either specifies or defers to one more fluent with removing both water and hydrostatic pressure from the wall. The structural engineer may consult with a geotechnical engineer...Just depends. A good place to start inquiring is with the Engineer of Record.
How boring life would be if we all had to perform all things identically...Hmmm what would the world be without Dodge and Chevrolet? (Certainly have a lot more Ford repair shops eh?) |
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icfdesign
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| 09/09/2001 4:53 PM |
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Ian,
Sometimes an ICF project is being constructed out in the middle of no where by a Do-it-yourself contractor type, and there isn't any Architect or Engineer of Record, sometimes the buildings are built without a set of working drawings. I thought if this question was asked and some didn't know the in's and out's of higher education (see your comment about the dumbing down of America!) perhaps when they sought out to find answers to the waterproofing question, it would help. As far as Ford Repair Shops, they pretty much all need a fix from time to time. Supporting a stone face with a brick ledge was the original issue here, and then an issue of how to waterproof the masonry support members? Setting up the job has as many ways to build it, as builders to build it. I'll exit now, for another year!
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Ian ICF Builders
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| 09/09/2001 5:28 PM |
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| One can always consult the rep.(s) for the particular waterproofing or dampproofing products...Only reservation about that is the underlying goal of the rep. is not necessarily the same as the owner of the project. The rep may believe in the product and would not be willing to recommend a different product or system that may provide a better solution for the task. |
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