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jdintexas
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 09/19/2001 9:16 AM |
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Ok..everyone keep their fingers crossed and say a prayer for me...have a contract on my home ..hoping to close on my house the 5th of Oct...then i can begin my long awaited journey to building my dream "ICF" home...but after reading the sips website(my architect suggested using SIPS for the roof) i am freaking out...rotting etc...so any feedback from builders, installers who've done this type of construction in conjunction with Icf would be greatly appreciated..as many heads are better than just one...thank you..Jeanne***   |
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panelbuilt
Registered Users
Posts:52
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| 09/22/2001 2:46 PM |
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Jeanne,
As you may have read in many of my posts on this site, a SIP roof system is a perfect marraige to an ICF wall system, second only to an ICF roof system that you may find available. I believe I read a post a while back on this site that spoke to ICF roof systems. Mark Ross seems to know who's who in the ICF world and could possibly point you in the right direction for an ICF roof.
As the SIP roof issue shakes out you're going to discover that the main problems with SIP roof systems is the installation.
It's no different than the discussions we've had here on this site concerning installations of ICF building systems. Several posts were stating their grievances with problems in their ICF installations and we're looking for advise on the subject. I believe after all the chatting was done, it was agreed that it wasn't the ICF system that created the problem, it was the installation. Everyone was pretty much in agreement with that.
Your home is the biggest investment that most people will make in their lifetimes. Way too often those same folks invest more time shopping and looking into the purchase of a car than they do in choosing a contractor to build their home. The biggest mistake is the mis-conception that all builders and contractors are the same. Just because they have a license and they tell you they've been doing this for a long time, doesn't mean they know what they're doing. You need to do background checks, see their work, talk to previous clients, make sure they're licensed, bonded and insured. The lowest price is seldom a smart investment in the construction industry.
We have over 15 projects that have ICF wall systems and a SIP roof system. Dating between
1996 to present.
Choose qualified, professional builders for your ICF System, SIP roof system and stick frame infill and quit freaking out. You'll enjoy a great home, state of the art and your energy bills will be the envy of the neighborhood.
Jim with PanelBuilt
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 09/22/2001 3:12 PM |
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Lets hear it for, "freaking me out", with all of that fear and worry!
Would the three little pigs have picked OSB Board and Lightweight Foam to build their house roof panels?
Probably not.....Imagine having a lightning stike on your house and sending every wire in your attic with thousands of amps/volts of electricity, to smolder and burn? The smoke from wood/foam panels would "freak out" even the most novice inquiry?
Hope your not "freaking out" to much longer, your new ICF house is getting ready to get built isn't it? Stick with steel roof system and be sure to install lightning rods and if your looking for foam insulation, go with an approved poly-iso type applied to the underneath of your roof deck! You ask, just my ten cents worth.....
Hope your feeling better!
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panelbuilt
Registered Users
Posts:52
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| 09/22/2001 3:30 PM |
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icfdesign,
Wow, quite an interesting perspective.
If I read your post right are you suggesting that all homes built previous to ICF technology is a disaster waiting to happen ??????????????? |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 09/22/2001 8:40 PM |
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Jdintexas,
I always skeptical of someone who uses fear and plays on one's emotions when respond to a significant investment as this (i.e., icfdesign's comments. I would continue to seek out more professional responses that speak to the issue and not to your fears.
That's my ten cents. |
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 09/22/2001 9:28 PM |
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Playing on emotions and fears?
With all respect, Mr. Unregistered, who ever you are.....
I have been a building designer/spec writer for years, and have seen my share of installation nightmares, and my share of bad products.....
I have even been a victim to some of the newbie items in the marketplace...
However, having said that? Why not post your name and let everyone know who you are, instead of throwing out simple accusations of my so called playing on the fears of a "freaking out" potential customer.
As far a professional responses, I can assure you, answering to a post of the following, and I quote: "Sips website freaking me out" of within itself is hardly a "professional" dialog to begin with. Although I think Jeannie was asking a valid and very important question or making a statement to let everyone here know she is concerned in a very light hearted way!! No offense intended to her! I can assure you she is sincere in her post!
I can assure you, from what I have read about the information that Jeannie is capable of reading and researching, she will take my post with a grain of salt...If she does at all!
My point was that a foam panel/OSB roof system over a "concrete vault" for a house, is like putting a plastic wrap over bank vault and expect to survive when a strong wind storm comes along, or even a lightning strike....In Texas, they have some hefty winds and lightning......
So as far as your hiding in Unregistered land for knocking me and my responses in a light hearted manner, I think if you know so much, why not put up a "professional" post of your own, and debunk my theory of the SIPS idea for a SIPS roof over a concrete house.....
Maybe it's because you sell that stuff, eh?
Oh, I see, I get it now.......
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 09/27/2001 9:28 AM |
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Just out of curiosity, why do people believe sips to be so bad? they are a good product, we use them in roofs all the time, they work well and seal up properly and can be used with proper tie downs for tornado resistance, which the alternative is wood truss or low slope concrete roofs at best (at this point anyway, I may be wrong on the concrete roofs). I think J knows what she is doing, and should be recieving more support, not freaky comments, you go girl.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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jdintexas
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 09/27/2001 4:42 PM |
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Mark...thank you soooooo much. I am sure with the good people like you and Ian on here i can't go wrong..The other gentleman is right..this is a major investment and some thing i really want to "get right" that is why i have researched and been such a pest on this site by asking so many questions..so once again thank you and i am sure i will be led to the right decisions and the right people to do this for me ...Jeanne
Edited by - jdintexas on 09/27/2001 18:03:47 |
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ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
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| 09/28/2001 5:38 PM |
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Hi frecked out! Don't be. Sips are a almost
perfact marrage to ICF's. We installed one nearly 10 years ago on our 2ed icf home, with no experiance in sips. Although One problem did occour. Icicles appeared at the eaves where the joints of the panels join. The problem was moisture entering in the joints of the panels."Solution" caulk!
As the job was started in late fall, the water in the concrete, drywall, paint, ect. was still in the very tight house. Proper ventalation solves moisture problems in all house's. This client is now selling his home and plans to build another icf/sips home.
Eldon Howe |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 09/29/2001 7:23 AM |
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JD:
Post more and more, your questions are not only welcome, but make for interesting discussion, I have learned a lot from the responses to your questions.
Eldon:
Hey bud, we have a few SIPS going on now, are you saying that we should ventilate heavily during the construction process?
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
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| 09/30/2001 1:21 PM |
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| Thats right Mark . Ventlate ! Who wants black mold on wood windows anyway. About joints, When the joints in the panels are not sealed correctly moisture can cause the panels to slowly fail over many years. As is the case in a Michigan home I have heard about.The proposed correction is to dismantle the roof panels , reinstall them , but this time spray foam will be used at all joints to seal and bond the panels together. And finily caulk all seams. This is the technique used by a local sips builder. |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 09/30/2001 11:48 PM |
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Dear JD - I too am planning an ICF house and am presently doing my homework on the roofing etc decision. Here's what I think so far, although Canada's climate may differ from yours...While "seal and ventilate" is good advice in any case, one thing that is WAY too overlooked in modern house construction is air pressure balance between the interior and exterior of a building.
As we speak house insurance companies across the continent are frantically scrambling to exclude mold and moisture damage from their policy coverage. It's a problem which often doesn't surface until years after construction is complete, but with the advent of "tight" homes it has the potential of reaching epidemic proportions. So far we have only seen the tip of the iceberg, but the health effects of mold, fungus etc on human health are largely unknown.
Previous wisdom held that the interior of a home should have slightly positive pressure relative to the exterior; warm air would leave the room at any "cracks". Thus you would still remain comfortable even if you were sitting in front of a crack because warm air would be leaving at that point instead of cold air entering. Positive pressure has other important benefits such as assisting the exhaust of combustible appliances and their potentially lethal fumes. The big fly in the ointment is that the air leaving the building through these "chinks" (and even well-sealed SIPs and ICF houses have SOME leaks) carries humidity with it which condenses and accumulates within the cooler interior of the walls and the insulation. At first this is invisible except for a loss of R-value. After a period of time the mold and rot appear.
The solution? Negative pressure within the building envelope. Wah-lah. No more moisture within the structure itself because only cooler drier air is entering the structure's internal cavities. The dew point of the air is never reached and the conditions for condensation are eliminated.
This concept must be part of a total building philosophy as the appliances, fireplace etc must be appropriate for the conditions, and an HRV (Heat Recovery Ventilator) is incorporated as part of the system to maintain the proper balance when exhaust fans etc are running.
I'm posting this because I have encountered contractors to which this concept is foreign, which is to reiterate Jim at Panelbuilt's earlier statement that not all contractors are created equal.
This current line of thinking may be the latest "fad" in building, but to me it is a logical and sensible solution to a problem waiting to happen.
Not to necessarily contradict icfdesign's statement, but the current (as of my research June 2001) wisdom on lightning rods is that after extensive testing by the US government and other agencies there is NO scientific evidence whatsoever that suggests that they are of ANY help in preventing or reducing the severity of strikes. Manufacturers of said devices have had to modify the wording of their claims. Having said that, good science has been unable to prove the existence of God either, but I still believe - just in case! ;)
By the way - my house has, for the most part, an attic which if used with a SIPS roof would mean (partially at least) heating (and cooling) this extra space unnecessarily. I'm currently leaning toward trusses with an aluminum (Inter-Lock) roof. I do know that testing and experience has shown that aluminum rooves are umatched by any material, steel or other, in hot climates for their reflectivty of heat during the daytime which leads to much lower air conditioning loads. Aluminum rooves do cost more than steel, but they also have their benefits.
Hope you are somewhat less freaked out by now, and best of luck with your house.
Best regards - Brian.
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CAT5ICF
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 11/12/2001 10:09 AM |
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Brain, or is that Brian?
First of all, if you are going to attempt to speak or post intelligently about a subject such as a roof, please learn how to use the proper plural form of that word. For the record it is ROOFS not rooves. If you feel my research on that subject is insufficient, feel free to consult Daniel Webster and his living cohorts. Secondly nobody can prevent lightning, not even your God whomever that might be. It is a force of nature and is a result of built-up charges having a large difference of potential, ie, the clouds above your head and the ground below your feet. The rods are installed not to attract the strike as many people mistakenly believe, but rather to displace some or all that energy to ground and away from the structure. For the record it can contain millions of volts and not merely thousands. Your research is woefully inadequate, and your trust in your government is ridiculous. Luckily for the rest of us "citizens", the founding fathers didn't trust the government they helped form and as a result we have the right to bear arms not to repel outside invaders (That awesome task falls to the United States Military), but to protect ourselves from our own government. The real "Homeland security force" (sorry Tom Ridge or whatever). Since I am up on my soap box again, I must comment on SIP's while I am here. Good product, unfortunately they still cause the death of trees and thus eventually the death of humans and all life on earth (Deforestation). It is called a symbiotic relationship. We give them CO2 and they give us O2 or oxygen folks, trees that is. It is rather essential to us. Research that. Now, is it a better product than a standard roof, yes. Does it cost more? Yes. Can an idiot screw up the installation due to poor craftsmenship and the "speed for greed attitude" Yes. I say go with an ICF concrete roof using steel trusses if you have the money. If not, borrow it from a greedy bank like the rest of America. Question to all the "researchers" out there. "what is the most recycled product in America"? The answer might surprise a few of you.
What would Ian say about all this? WoW!!!
Bob Duren
Category Five Wall Systems
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 11/12/2001 2:50 PM |
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Good Grief Bob,
You must be ready to pick a fight with who ever you see or read first today...
Did you ever think some folks don't give a rats *ss about the grammar or spelling here or any other place on the web....
I know many a folk, who didn't even graduate from High School and could out smart you, buy and sell you, and eat your lunch before you could spell roofs.....
Give it a rest dude, my God.....Next time you want to start in on someone, kick the damn dog, and save the folks here your endless and mindless banter......
How much ICF experience do you have?????
Further more, give up the "politically incorrect" speal a rest, it does nothing more that make for babble to say the least...
And before you start in on me, watch it buddy, I don't go away easy, and I never give up.......
Edited by - icfdesign on 11/12/2001 14:51:23 |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 11/12/2001 4:09 PM |
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| LOL!!!!! |
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