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ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
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| 10/06/2001 6:26 PM |
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I was asked if plastic ties would breakdown over time. What's the scoop?
Eldon |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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LARRY
Registered Users
Posts:123
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| 10/08/2001 11:49 AM |
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Isn't plastic supposed to last forever? I don't believe the plastic will decompose over time, but it seems that the temperature cycles over time (depending on location) could may be a concern with the plastic ties. Maybe a better question is whether or not the ties lose strength over time due to the temperature cycling.
I have heard of 2 instances (on the same job)where the plastic tabs have snapped in the cold. Screws were attached to the block (they carried about 35 pounds each) in the summer and broke in the winter. Out of about 2500 screws each carrying about 35 pounds, 2 broke with the plastic webs.
.......Larry |
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ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
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| 10/08/2001 6:37 PM |
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I just got to believe your right Larry. Most webing is protected with a 1/2" layer of eps and again by the siding itself. I wonder if his concern is comming from the steel industry. Hey we poured two icf walls, one today and one last week. Thats pretty good for us.
Eldon |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
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| 10/09/2001 6:48 PM |
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Hi guys I just recieved my first copy of the Monitor. In it is a interview with Lance Berrenberg. He states that the "plastic ties made out of polyethylene or polypropylene will deteriorate over time, perhaps in 5-15 years." If this is even remotly true. It is totaly unacceptable in durable concrete structure. Does Lance know something we don't?
Eldon |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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LARRY
Registered Users
Posts:123
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| 10/11/2001 6:51 AM |
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Boy, if that's the case, it sure makes it difficult to go out and put all the effort, time, and money into a project knowing that it will fall apart in 10 years doesn't it?
It seems the ICF Mfgrs would have tested the ties over a lengthy period of time.
I wonder what he means by decompose? When I think of a mat'l decomposing, I think of the material breaking down and flaking or braking off of the rest of the structure (kind of like the eps when it is exposed to uv rays for a period of time).
The plastic ties don't seem like they would break down, although the mechanical properties of the plastic may change, which is also a big concern.
I'm not a plastics engineer.....I'd like to hear from someone with more expertise in this area.
Thanks.....Larry |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 10/11/2001 8:51 AM |
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Use stucco, thats my solution, but this does raise an interesting point, I have seen ICF's which have been left out for several years in our storage yards, and I have to admit that there is a real point here, the plastic properties of the ties did change and they seemed more brittle than the new blocks. It will be interesting to here more on this topic.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 10/11/2001 12:21 PM |
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Eldon, obviously, ole Lance is simply promoting Polysteel, as I would expect. I can tell you that depending on the type polyproplene used in manufacturing the web, it can have an impact on its durability. For instance, a copolymer polypropelene compound will have less strength than a homoploymer propelene. Then you have to consider what additives are blended in with each type. Every additive will effect the performance, especially duting temperature cycling. I am looking into this further, and no, I am not a plastics specialist, but I will get the info from our plastics supplier directly, and let you know the results. But also, consider this: most ICF manufacturers supply a limited warranty covering up to 20 years +. They wouldn't do so unless they were certain their product could stand the test of time! More to follow....
Cheers
Rick
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 10/31/2001 4:11 PM |
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Just a follow up: anyone interested in more detail regarding the properties of polypropelene can visit www.boedeker.com/poly_p.htm
Thanks
Rick
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 10/31/2001 8:26 PM |
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Since 1993 the plastic vs. metal web tie has been under review here at my office. The first plastic tie that I started to review was the American ConForm product. Secondly, a product called "AAB" that was manufactured by a company in Cobourg, Ontario. The first metal web material that I started to review was a product called ICE BLOCK made in Ohio by a company who owned the patent rights to the ICEBLOCK product in 1993. I have products from all three of these companies setting in the yard for a reason. To see just what they would do under a "wait and see" in the weather elements. I also have a test wall poured out of each of these products and check them annually. My results would surprise anyone who is interested in the long term effects of the elements and the typical installation methods of the products, per the mfg. spec's. I currently have ten ICF's under review in the same manner as the first three. The findings will be prepared and published in a "whitepaper" that is going to published in late 2004. This would be almost a period of ten (+) years since I first started my project. Until then, I will refrain from any further comments.
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 11/01/2001 12:57 AM |
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OOOkay, how about a few of us check on our existing 10+ year old installations, this would be a better picture.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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LARRY
Registered Users
Posts:123
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| 11/01/2001 7:50 AM |
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Rick, thanks for the website.....lots of good info there. Are all icfs (with plastic webs)made of 100% polypropylene or are there other additives added to the poly pro? I've seen several blocks manufactured by the same company which have distinctly different color webs. (some are black, some are gray, and some are almost clear). I dont know much about plastics, but I would imagine that the mechanical, thermal, etc props of the different colors vary quite a bit,....thats what the mfgr is testing for.
One of the very few things I know about plastics, or any matl for that matter is that different colors imply different properties (assuming the same type of matl of course), unless of course pigments are added. I assume icf mfgrs would not add pigments to their ties just to make them black. From what I see, most icf webs are black and have been black for a long time.
These webs have been tested and proven over many years.
When I see a web that is clear, or gray, is it polypro like the black color webs or is it a completely different material? How can a mfgr feel confident that a gray web will perform just as well as a black web? Isn't the testing supposed to be done prior to putting the product on the market?........I could go on forever here..................
Larry |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 11/01/2001 10:03 AM |
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Larry, mon ami,
Not everyone manufactures with 100% polypro, some manufacturers use a re-grind with additives. Upside of additives: more flexibility and impact resistance (can take a nail better with a reduced risk of splitting or cracking) downside: less tensile or pull out strength. Not that thats a real issue as most ICF manufacturer's plastic webs meet certain acceptable criteria for pull out and shear strength.
I dont know if colouring is supposed to discriminate between different strength ties, but I do know that we use an additive for colouring as our raw plastic is NOT black.That website I mentioned supplies a lot of clear concise info on the properties of polyprop. Its simply an excellent material to use in icfs.
Cheers
Rick
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CAT5ICF
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 11/12/2001 10:59 AM |
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To reply to ICF DESIGNS reply, have you ever heard of the scientific method? Not to give you a hard time, but your results if any, will be useless at best. You may need a hobby other than trashing up your back yard. How do your neighbors feel about this "hobby"? First of all since most of these webs are some form of plastic, water probably won't have much effect on them. The UV rays they will recieve in this scientific venture would not be allowed to hit them in a "real" installation due to siding and the fact that many manufacturers (Amvic comes to mind first for some reason) have had the intelligence to recess them, for various reasons. My vote is to do real world testing as Mark suggests. No offense to anyone but a "junkyard" tests proves nothing. Let's all try to be scientific about all of this and use a little common sense, the world is watching and waiting and the consumers are now forcing the contractors to use ICF's at a higher rate. We are finally getting somewhere. "if you build it they will come". If you lay it in your yard.....
Bob Duren
Category Five Wall Systems
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 11/12/2001 2:41 PM |
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In repsonse to Bob at Catagory 5....
The wall assemblies are built and finished just as they would be in a real world application. And the neighbors don't really give a damn, because there aren't any neighbors that are able to see the walls....
Secondly, I am sure your right about one thing, no one really cares and it's useless to say the least....
I see that you have unleashed many comment today, in all of the forums, perhaps your need to vent your feelings is one of satisfaction...I sure hope to hell you feel better....
How long have you been in the ICF business anyway, a year or two?........Damn, dude you have alot of expereince, so just vent on....
If you don't think any engineering firms are in the wall/web study, you are not informed.... But like so many others in this business, ill informed is the norm.....
Carry on dude, I hope your venting makes you feel better.......
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panelbuilt
Registered Users
Posts:52
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| 11/12/2001 6:49 PM |
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KIDS, KIDS, KIDS   
As I stated in the 7th inning
Chill out Bob !!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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