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wechis
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 10/16/2001 7:46 PM |
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Hi All! Sorry if these questions are a repeat as I am a newbie.
I have a multi-part question/statement.
I want to contract my own home of ICFs and SIPs as well as steel interior framing. I have done much reading on all but have not seen much that ties the three together. One question is a preference thing. I have an Amvic dealer within an hour of home but want to know if the benefits of polysteel outweigh the convenience. If anyone can give me any helpful hints please feel free. or e-mail me with subject ICF
Thanks
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LARRY
Registered Users
Posts:123
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| 10/17/2001 6:38 AM |
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I think you question basically boils down to what are the benefits of steel ties over plastric ties as well as the spacing of the ties. I am not qualified to answer this question, as I've never used steel ties before.
I can however state that I have use a block with plastic ties at 6" o.c. and they work quite well.
I'm sure there's many out there who have used both types of block and can give you more info.
.....Larry |
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ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
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| 10/17/2001 9:34 PM |
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Hi Mr wechis, I have used both poly-steel and amvic . Both work extremely well. However polysteel has shorter ties (vertically) than amvic and will require straping to screw siding on. The steel ties visually show wicking on cold whinter days. Amvics plastic ties held our steel bracing well, but the drywaller had problems holding a screw . Just slow down the rpms. We internally viberate all forms ,with polysteel it is more important being there is less concrete.
Eldon |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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365
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 11/07/2001 8:53 PM |
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| Tieing sips, ICFs and steel framing together in one package really will have little bearing on whether you use steel or plastic fasteners. Any tieing of the steel framing or the sips panel to the wall of either should be done by attaching the wall unit to the concrete in the wall and not depend fastener in the wall. On rare occassion you may find yourself attaching a nonbearing wall to the fastener because of how the tie happens to fall in the wall and marry up to the 2x4 but don't count on it. Attaching sips panels to the top of a sill plate can be done a number of ways but personally I prefer to bolt them to the sill plate attop the ICF wall. Another way is to use specially designed simpson ties for just that purpose. The basically go into the concrete, extend up between the sips and strap the sips to the sill plate on both sides. This process takes a bit of tricy measuring but works well when templates are used to get the spacing while concrete is placed. Steel framing is really no major deal and is best done when trusses are used to span the house and you can use light guage steel for the internal walls and limit the heavy load bearing stuff. If you are doing concrete floors such as a two story, consult a structural engineer. But for simplicity purposes I like using 0 deflection "J" Bar trusses and pan decking. The truss spacing depending on your engineer. I also like a continuous plate of limited width to run the load bearing direction on the load bearing walls. This allows me to concentrate on only needing to get the linear (10 foot section) of load bearing plate level. I can take my time spacing the "J" Bar trusses when the concrete is cured and work loads are much less than during a pour. Well there are some basics I hope they are helpful. |
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lawson
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 11/07/2001 9:55 PM |
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I am also considering building with ICF's, SIP roof, and steel interior framing. I too, have found much info on each but little on the combination. Let's hope interests like ours will spawn some collaboration efforts between the manufacturers to promote a completely 'alternative' home in the mainstream building industry.
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Barret Roosa
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 11/09/2001 1:42 PM |
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I was considering using Steel with ICF and SIPs, but after looking into steel, I really have moved toward going traditional on the wall studs and trusses, but sticking with the ICF and possibly SIPs. The reason I am not so sure on the Steel is that there aren't that many framers that are familiar with Steel in my area, Charlotte, NC, and fixture hanging I have heard can be problamatic with Steel studs. I like the idea of having straight walls and not cutting down trees, but with the downsides I am strongly considering wood.
Love this thread. Keep the comments coming!
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jdintexas
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 11/09/2001 3:53 PM |
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| You know i had seriously thought about using Sips too but after reading all the problems and the COST of sips why not just frame up the roof trusses and put OSB ontop and hire someone to just fill it in with FOAM?...achieve the same goal of having an Envelope without the expensive cost of sips!!..let me know what you think..Jeanne |
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ICF372
Registered Users
Posts:219
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| 11/09/2001 4:58 PM |
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JD, you should really have no problems with sips. If you find a good builder who really knows how to frame, then sips are just another material to build with. It's just done differently. Even unusual roof lines are done well with sips,by a good builder. Cost may be more, but think of the strength of sips. That is in my opinion their real advantage. With no sips experience and three men we install a 28' x 48' roof in one afternoon. Foamed in trusses should work well, as would cellouse. But sometimes these days on the rare chance that your truss'es should happen to be a little on the green side, because of short drying times of kiln dried lumber. Warpage , srinkage, and newly formed gaps between your foam and truss may be a problem . You see no matter what the type of framing system you use,their are promlems. Conventional builders just don't post these problems. The key here is to find a good builder.
Eldon Howe |
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Eldon Howe
Howe Construction
Total Concrete Homes provide positive cash flow , DAY ONE . |
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jdintexas
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 11/09/2001 5:25 PM |
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| Howie!!..Very insightful and thought provoking..never thought of it that way and you make some very important points..green lumber and the ease...hmmm..will check into the cost again..thank you sooooooo much..Jeanne... |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 11/09/2001 11:27 PM |
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Wood in the building envelope is not a good thing. In the south its termites, in the north its condensation and rot, neither wins, and weather its wood frame walls, or roofs in my opinion you loose. Think of the old stone forts of england, in which the walls are standing as they have since the day they were built, but the roof has long since collapsed in. However, for interior walls, I feel that wood is a very good product to use. If the shell prevents the problems associated with rot and termites, then the interior framing, which is in a controlled enviornment would not suffer the type of exposed abuse the envelope does. In short, there are a lot of wooden antiques on the market, in as good a shape as the day they were made, but they have always been indoors in a controlled enviornment. Is this small amount of wood a problem??? Steel studding just does not cut it with me, I dont like the flex to the walls, the slamming of interior doors defeats the strength of the walls, and upping the thickness of the steel, adds to the overall cost, and when I have to balance function with cost, steel just does not quite cut it. I personally would prefer concrete block interior walls, only due to durability, but I think the costs for this type of construction would be outrages. I also think that with the cost of clear span concrete floors being at or below the cost of TJI floor joists or truss's now, that the areas such as bathrooms and laundry rooms, in which the floors rot out over a few years can also be justified to be a thing of the past.
In short, I think the best form of durable, cost effective construction of this type is, concrete floors, walls and roof, wood or block interior walls, tile in wash areas, and carpet or wood in remainder.
As for the details for connections, the shell is a continuous pour, so standard reinforced concrete detailing would be best, and every contractor knows how to connect wood to concrete, or to lay blocks on concrete floors, so these should be non-issues.
Just my opinion.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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panelbuilt
Registered Users
Posts:52
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| 11/10/2001 6:08 PM |
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Combining different building systems together is common in the building industry and is a simple matter of detailing.
You won't find any one source that will provide you with that information as each industry believes their buidling system is the best and you should build the entire structure with one system, but each company should have knowledge of how other systems interface with theirs.
If our client wants ICF wall systems and a SIP roof system we design the connection between the two, which is a simple industry
standard. Attaching steel interior framing to an ICF wall system is a simple fastener detail.
Decide how you want to construct your project and which materials you're going to use and you'll discover that the manufacturers of the different products you purchase from will be an open source of information to help you, as it is typically part of their sales effort to assist you.
Jim Crowley
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 11/19/2001 9:01 PM |
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Jim:
My comments on total concrete were simple to ensure consitency in approach and construction. As an example, how about english forts, which have stone walls standing and wood floor and roofs long since rotted away. Or a tornado with the capability of removing the weakest link in the chain, such as the roof or smashing windows in. The "indistructable shell should be all inclusive, in the case of disaster resistance, or longevity of structure should it not???
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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