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LARRY
Registered Users
Posts:123
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| 02/04/2002 12:06 PM |
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What is the best way to attach kitchen cabinets to an icf wall? Attach 2x4's horizontally to icf wall and then cabinets to the 2x4's, or is there another way?
Thanks....Larry |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 02/04/2002 3:41 PM |
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| run a piece of sheet metal attached to the furring strips under the drywall.... |
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badchad
Registered Users
Posts:66
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| 02/04/2002 7:02 PM |
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Larry,
I've seen this done a couple of different ways.
1. You could cut out the foam for a 2x4 or 2x6 to a depth of 1 1/2 inch (the depth of the 2 by stock. Use anchors or a foam adhesive and tie the stock into the wall. The draw back here is depending on the height of the cabinets you may have to cut through the webbing. This can get pretty time consuming.
2. Another option is to screw a sheet of plywood the same thickness as your drywall to the webbing and then attach the cabinets to the plywood. I've seen a couple of techniques for this. Cut the ply to the height and width of the cabinet run or make an upper and lower run (2 strips of say 6 inches wide) for the wall cabinets and an upper run for your base cabinets.
On the base cabinets you can run it up above the cabinet if you are going to incorporate a laminated back splash.
Some folks that I talk to like to make the length of the run a 1/2in or 3/4 short of the cabinets to hide the seem at the drywall and the plywood.
Hope this helps,
Chad Newman
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LARRY
Registered Users
Posts:123
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| 02/05/2002 7:13 AM |
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quote:
Larry,
I've seen this done a couple of different ways.
1. You could cut out the foam for a 2x4 or 2x6 to a depth of 1 1/2 inch (the depth of the 2 by stock. Use anchors or a foam adhesive and tie the stock into the wall. The draw back here is depending on the height of the cabinets you may have to cut through the webbing. This can get pretty time consuming.
2. Another option is to screw a sheet of plywood the same thickness as your drywall to the webbing and then attach the cabinets to the plywood. I've seen a couple of techniques for this. Cut the ply to the height and width of the cabinet run or make an upper and lower run (2 strips of say 6 inches wide) for the wall cabinets and an upper run for your base cabinets.
On the base cabinets you can run it up above the cabinet if you are going to incorporate a laminated back splash.
Some folks that I talk to like to make the length of the run a 1/2in or 3/4 short of the cabinets to hide the seem at the drywall and the plywood.
Hope this helps,
Chad Newman
This helps a bunch, thanks alot!
..........Larry
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 02/05/2002 9:26 AM |
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| My cabinets were attached by marking out the furring strips, then screwing directly into them. Not the easiest, but, my cabinets are still there. |
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James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
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| 02/06/2002 4:43 PM |
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Rick
I actually did the same thing with 42" wall cabinets except I also used an adhesive caulk, I believe it was PhenoSeal on the mounting part of the backs. I recently looked these over closely and there is no movement to date.
Although everyone needs to assess their own situation, my feeling is to eliminate any downward shear by adhesives along with proper sized and proper installed screws into the built-in straps. I have not tried this with the metal straps!
I believe if someone was concerned about movement they could also use a Tapcon style anchor into the concrete. The potential exists for movement because of the thickness of the foam, so I would also use adhesives.
Take Care
Jim
Edited by - james eggert on 02/06/2002 16:45:49 |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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hope
Registered Users
Posts:46
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| 02/06/2002 10:24 PM |
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It has been a while since I read this, but I believe a Polysteel installation manual suggests putting plywood in place of sheet rock in areas where heavy things such as cabinets are hung on the wall. You would use plywood the same thickness as the sheet rock and tape and finish the joints just as you would the rock. Anyone ever done this?
Dub |
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INDY ICF
Registered Users
Posts:13
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| 02/12/2002 5:34 PM |
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I have never understood this issue. The manufacturers of ICFs promote the pull out resistance of the webs and speak of their strength, but they tell contractors to hang a sheet of plywood or mount 2x4s behind the cabinets. What the hell is this all about?
If the pullout strength of the webs are equal to or greater than lumber, then why would you hang plywood? The ICF manufacturer's have all of the lateral and direct pullout tests. If these are valid, then why recommend something that adds no value, only cost, to your project?
Solid backing is one answer I have heard. This makes no sense because you have a solid backing of conrete, foam and drywall. The cabinets, even full of china, create a screw shear concern, not axial movement. Also, the manufacturers will lead you to believe that if a drywall joint doesn't fall on a web, no big deal. The foam and concrete create a "solid backing" and the edges can simply be glued. This recommendation comes without regard to the location of this joint. Same solid backing as behind the cabinets.
The other answer I have heard is using plywood will give you more attachment points than the webs alone. If this is the case, then why don't carpenters subscribe to the same mentality when hanging cabinets on 2 x 4 walls? This would only seem logical, right? The fact is, hanging plywood behind the cabinets is a pain in the rear and it makes the finishers job harder due to disimilar materials. You are setting yourself up for problems, both in construction and in warranty/service. As for leaving the plywood short of the sides and top/bottom of the cabinets so the joint is behind the cabinet, don't count on this to happen 100% of the time. Unless, that is, you are hanging and finishing the drywall and hanging the cabinets.
It seems to me that, just like other things, one ICF manufacturer says you should do this, so the others, in lieu of doing their own research, copy the idea. The other things they take from each other are slots in bracing systems, double S bends on boom pumps, the psi specs on concrete, leaving 1/4" above bucks to allow for settling, etc.
If you ask me, all manufacturers need to get their stories straight. It seems to me that a lot of these people are marketeers or engineers that have never built a building and don't have the slightest idea about how to finish a home/commercial building. That is why ICFs are a "Professionaly Installed Product." You should rely on the knowledge and professionalism of your contractor. This is not a DIY product.
Sincerely,
Chris Fahy |
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Ian ICF Builders
Registered Users
Posts:612
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| 02/12/2002 8:04 PM |
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Chris: Welcome to the fragmented world of ICF. You must be relatively new...just figuring some of these things out?
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LARRY
Registered Users
Posts:123
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| 02/13/2002 7:00 AM |
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Thanks, guys
It is indeed little things like mounting cabinets to icf's that make them seem cumbersome to build with. I do have the specs for the webs in the block I am using and the shear and pull out values are very comparable to dimensional lumber.
...Larry |
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Dave Watson @ Polysteel
Registered Users
Posts:34
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| 02/14/2002 9:14 PM |
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Polysteel recommends the use of either 24-26 gauge sheet metal installed between the drywall and the forms or the installation 1/2" plywood and then attach the upper cabinets. This is recommended so it is easier for the trades following to have attachpoints that align with the styles and rails of the cabinets, not due to a lack of sheer or pullout strength of the ties. Ties on many forms including Polysteel do not run the full height of the forms to simplify installation of electrical and plumbing. The use of the sheet metal or plywood bridges these areas so it is easier for installation of kit or pre-manufactured cabinets.
I believe the easier we make it for the trades who follow behind us the less resistance we will see from builders and other contractors willing to participate in future projects.
Dave Watson
American Polysteel
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 03/03/2002 8:15 AM |
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I'm a DIYer. before the drywall I took my SazAll and cut a 4 wide strip in the foam where the top of the cabinets would go and the same at the bottom. Used the claw on my hammer ripped out the foam and Tapcon 2 2x4 pt in the openings. Then dry walled as normal right over the 2x4. When the cabinet guy came he was very happy to find out there was a continues board to attach to. He said the job was easier than a stick home.
There were no fishing issues because the drywall was run over the foam and the 2x4s which were set back a bit from the face of the foam. This didnt make a difference because the cabinets pushed against the drywall and the screws bridged the gap.
I have had no problems what so ever. |
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joenaz
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 03/10/2002 3:14 PM |
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| tech block in phoenix has 3/4 inch osb glued to the interior side of every block. that solves their attachment problems. i hope to build with them later this year. |
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