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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 02/20/2002 1:21 AM |
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Heres a question, we are standardizing and finalizing a generic HVAC via geothermal heat pump for the ICF industry, we are looking at a marketing survey, and I hope you guys (and gals) can help.
We have designed the geothermal heat pump in steps for icf structures, assuming radiant floors are heated with the pump as well. So the entire system for an approximatly 2,000 square foot home would include the earth loops, pumps and water to water unit with hot water de-superheater, zoned radiant floor package, hot water tank, dual zone central air cooling system with all ductwork, and hre/erv including high efficiency particulate recirculating air seperator. This would have all the controls and grills etc, and tools for the completion of the installation. The units would have assembly by number or color coded instructions.
Question is this, what does it cost or what does it cost in current ICF buildings for similar systems?
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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Barret Roosa
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 02/21/2002 9:38 AM |
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Mark,
Haven't seen much on using ICF's with Geo systems, but I really think there is something here!
I've been researching this very subject for about 6 months now. I will be building a 4800 square foot home in Charlotte, NC. Basement and 1st floor ICF, 1/2 story traditional framing above. My research has found that Water Furnace makes the most respected water to air heat pumps. They also have a unit that will supply your radiant floor system without a separate water heater. I chose not to do the radiant floor for my home. My total system including 1000 vertical feet of drilling and tubing, the heat pump itself, 4 zone ducting and an air to air heat exchanger came to just over $30k. I have been told that my annual electric bill for A/C, heat and hot water will not exceed $950!
I realize that there will be a considerable difference in the cost of a system for 2000 sq ft and 4800, but thought this may give you some reference point. Check out www.waterfurnace.com. Not much specific info, but it will direct you to a dealer. Would like to hear what you find. Email me with your thoughts barroosa@bellsouth.net
Good luck!
Edited by - Barret Roosa on 02/22/2002 08:19:15 |
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 02/23/2002 12:09 AM |
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In 1991, I had a geothermal unit installed in my stick 2x6, 2 story all electric home of about 1800 sqf in Kansas City, MO. I sold it in 1999. During that period, my total electric bill averaged $150 per month. The geothermal saved me more than $100 per month, each and every month, for more than 8 years. More than enough to pay for itself and then some.
However, due to the high R-factors in ICF homes, I seriously doubt that the savings from a geo unit over a reasonable payback time will be enough to payback the extra cost of the geo unit. With the exception of very cold far north climates.
Mark: I suggest you do a cost/benefit analysis for various size houses vs locations to determine if the payback is REAL or imagined. This will then give you a real basis to determine whether you will have enough customers for the geo unit to make it a profitable venture for your company.
I will be building an ICF/SIP home this year. Based on my own experience with geo, vs the R-factors of ICF/SIP, I believe the payback time for geo would be very LONG. I'm not doing it for that reason.
Best wishes on your design efforts. Since you are trying something new to ICF's, you might take a look at the relatively new HVAC mini-tube systems. They deliver the air much faster cfm and does a much better job of heating and cooling a given space. |
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James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:1001
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| 02/23/2002 7:14 AM |
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The mini-tube systems, commonly referred to as High-Velocity Systems are in a unique position. I use a Unico H-V in my own home. The A/c side is an awesome provider of cool, super dehumidified air where I can have humidity under 40 while at 70. Depends on how much the unit is working.
However, I am not happy with the heat side of this system for the winters here in CT. I feel that the balance between heat removal from the H/W coil and using a boiler to provide it is overkill. I did use a 30g fuel-oil fired H/W heater as a heat source for a 3 month trial, but the H/W coil along with the amount of air across it just made the water heater work too hard.
I am retrofiting to baseboard.
In cooler winters I do not feel the system provides a good economic return for the other parts required. In milder climates it would probably work fine, just using a water heater as a heat source in lieu of a boiler.
Take Care
Jim
Edited by - james eggert on 02/23/2002 07:16:10 |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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gstovall
Registered Users
Posts:51
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| 02/23/2002 1:10 PM |
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I've been strongly considering trying to use a geothermal system in my new home (and had also been attracted to Water Furnace based on what I've been reading on the web), but your price of $30K just for the HVAC system really scares me. That would price it right out of my reach. I completely replaced the HVAC system in my current home for $3k with a nice new RHEEM furnace and 4ton AC unit, so I couldn't see paying 10 times more than that. The payoff would be a long time down the road for me.
QUESTION: NW Arkansas is an average south central climate. Winters average 20F, with occasional dips to 0F (and rarely to -9F), summers are 90F, with occasional forays to 100F (and sometimes a bit higher). With an ICF home, would a geo unit make any sense at all, or should I just go with a regular heat pump? My father-in-law's electricity bills are really high ($250/month, year around), so this makes me worried about air heat pump. Of course, his house is stick built...
Feedback?
Greg Stovall
Homeowner, ICF enthusiast |
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Ian ICF Builders
Registered Users
Posts:612
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| 02/23/2002 9:46 PM |
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Greg:
Realizing that you are "down the road" until you actually build, technology in the HVAC equipment business will not be the same as it is today.
There is a company based in Arkansas that manufactures a very economical geo system.
Contact Richard Rue at Superior Energy Wise Structures (you should be able to find his info on this site), he can help you with your concerns.
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Unregistered
Registered Users
Posts:2321
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| 03/02/2002 6:31 PM |
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| I built and ICF home in Tampa FL. Its about 2,000 sq ft my power bill in the summer is only 80-90. I have a 3 ton AC. The system is so cheap to begin with (about $35000 includes ducts and all hardware) then the monthly electric bill is half that of the guy next door. I say put the money in the house not the heating / cooling system. The house will give you your savings. |
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