Hello all,

I am in the process of building my ICF house in Northwest Flordia (Okaloosa County).  I am getting the rest of my windows this week from the suplier.  I installed an acrilic block window in my master bathroom a few weeks ago.  I have 2 x 12 window bucks.  I installed the window using window and door silicone.  I did not wrap the window buck with cheap black plastic before installing the window.  The inspector came out and was inpsecting the brick ties on the house and said I had to remove the window and wrap the openings with plastic before I installed the window.  Putting platic over the sealing edge of the 2 x 12 makes NO sense to me.  How can you make that joint air tight.  Eventually, the plastic will rot away leaving leaks and voids.  I looked on the internet in the Florida Building codes and fould NOTHING about sealing doors and windows or the use of any type of flashing or plastic for these openings.  How do yall seal your doors and windows against the bucks?

Thanks

Raceman,

Check with your window manufacturer. They should have a specific detail you need to follow in order for them to honor their warranty.

ICF Contractor

We have used products such as Hydrostop or Sealoflex. They are latex based and with fabric and 2 coats applied you will be able to get the waterproofing you need to achieve and allow for various finish applications. They can be purchased at roofing supply locations.

Raceman,

Code requires that non-pressure treated wood must not be in direct contact with concrete and must have a moisture barrier between the wood and the concrete.

Did you use pressure treated wood for your bucks? If not, that's the only reason I can think of for the building inspector to have you remove your windows.

bnc

I used pressure treated wood for all the window and door bucks.  I talked to the inspector this morning.  He wants me to put a 12" strip of Black plastic on the bottom sill of the window and 1 foot up each side of the window.  He said this was to keep moisture from rotting the wood if the window was to leak.  After that, I just need to install a flashing tape over the nail fins.   

I thought the reason for using pt wood was to keep moisture from rotting the wood??? makes absolutely no sense to me what he's asking you to do. with that plastic on the sides.. you've just created 2 places for moisture to enter.. between the plastic and the buck.. and between the plastic and the window... which one of those are you going to seal.. if you use expanding foam from the inside it will most likely be between the window and the plastic.. and then you won't be sealed between the buck and the black plastic.. The whole idea of the flashing tape over the fin is to prevent moisture from entering.. a bead of silicone between fin and sheeting/buck is helpful.. and then a final bead of silicone between siding and window is good.. and usually whoever installs the siding will blind caulk the window and also caulk the j trim to the window.. that plastic sounds like a waste to me.. too bad he's going to make you do it.

Follow up to earlier response. Here in west coast FL no one in their right mind would require plastic to be placed over any kind of wood material, PT or otherwise. The membrane materials I mentioned are used both vertical and horizontal applications. We apply prodoct over the EPS and wood, covering the joint of the materials and wrapping it into the opening to the window line. The stops are installed and sealed. Follow the proper method and care for the window install and you should have it. Are the windows recessed in the opening or have nail fins for the face install to th PT? Are you using stucco? Siding? This also affects the need for waterproofing at location, such as using tape over the fins after install. Also allowing for beveling the sill would be needed depending on the design. Are we helping?

It sounds like he is trying to get you to build a pan at the botom of the window to help let any moisture escape should the window leak.  In wood framing we pitch the rough sill to help this as well as build a pan.  Tyvek makes a flexible membrane for this purpose.  It is quite expensive.  I thought this was good practice in today's world, we never did it when I started,  but did not think it was a building code issue.  I would ask him to show you the code for this application.  It may be his agenda, but not a code requirement.

John

The outside will be brick. The windows have a nail fin on them. JFJohnson is thinking the same thing I am. How are you going to seal both places. The inspector is only requiring the plastic to be placed on the sill and 1 foor up each side. He wants the plastic to be attached on the outside and then pulled up and layed down over the sill towards the inside (Covering up the sealing edge of the 2 x 12). After that, I would install the window per the window manufacturing instructions (AAMA 2400) and use their approved sealing tape as flashing. And Yes, Thank yall for the help.

You guys need to realize that the Inspector is used to dealing with conventional frame homes or perhaps CMU walls, ICF is probably a new gig to him, I have a practice of visiting with all inspectors prior to even starting in a new county and reviewing what we do and how we do it, this removes any ambiguity from the equation and when it comes time for inspections there are no surprises or questions, we pass inspection and carry on without delays.

Also remember...

1) The inspecting jurisdiction is always right
2) If in doubt - refer to # 1 above

Chris

Update:

The inspector bought off on my window installation. I used 12" black poly on the sill and up 1 foot on each side of the jamb. I let the plastic hang out over the edge of the 2 x 12 by about 2 inches. I cut the corners and stapled it all down. Then. I followed what was reccommended in AAMA 2400. I ended up using this tar covered tape used for windoew installations (this stuff works great and sticks great to the ICF wall. Thanks for the help!

bnc
What code where requires PT, or non-PT with barrier, to be used against concrete when it's more than 8" above ground and not subject to weather exposure? The local BI and I neither one can find in IRC 2006 any requirement for decay resistant wood in contact with concrete when it's more than 8" above ground. Did we miss it in the code, or is this something from the older UBC?

My local ICF guy said to stay away from PT for bucks if possible. The stuff twists and turns all over the place, even years later, causing problems with windows. I'm referring to the newer ACQ PT. Older, now banned, PT wasn't a real problem.

I'm planning on using Douglas Fir for the bucks in the house I'm getting ready to build. The BI wants me to put plastic between the 2x and the concrete in areas subject to getting wet, like the bottom end of door jambs, and wherever it's within 8" of the ground.

Mac

You're right that section R319 in the IRC03 has the 8" provision, however, what we determined somewhere maybe 8 years ago was to use non-pt window and door bucks and adding a moisture barrier of 15 or 30# felt in order to keep the moisture out of the wood during the initial pouring/curing period. Keeping the moisture away from the wood helps keep it straight longer! Many BOs and BIs think PT always where concrete in present, so doing the felt barrier is another way to show you care!

However, we always use PT for the basement foundation doors and windows!

Jim,

About 3 to 4 years ago we started removing PT lumber from our buildings. I don't know about the rest of the country, but it seems up here in the Pacific NW they have been taking boards that don't make the cut for 2 or btr and pressure treating them so they can sell them for 2-3xs the price. Anyway we started using vinyl buck for all of our windows. I still don't like it for my doors, I feel it does not handle the weight and pressure of a door well. We have had great success with nice straight and clean window openings that are easy to flash and finish. Granted there is a learning curve to the product, but once you get it down it works real slick and is a great time saver.

My opinion has evolved over the years to, "Why introduce a material or a product to a building that has the potential to last hundreds or maybe thousands of years that will have to propencity to fail in less than 100 years".

ICF Contractor

ICF Contractor;

I too found success in the vinyl buck product for windows, doors I use 3x pt, I believe the door gets secured much better, the learning curve with the vinyl buck wasn't that bad, it was the cost of the bracing system that drove me nuts, but once I finally purchased it, it paid for itself over and over...

Has anyone tried to metal bucks available now?

Chris

Here's the cross section detail of how I'm planning on framing for doors in the ICF house I'm getting ready to build. A bit complicated, and will require some extra effort on the external finish, but has pluses. First I can use a standard pre-hung door made for 2 x 6 wall. Second, I can install it using the nail fins and still have it flush to the interior. Third, it will be anchored into a solid structure. And fourth, it has a good thermal break.

I will use an 11" to 12" wide sill of stone, concrete, or something of the sort. The redwood caps on the bottom are for decay resistance in the likely event some water will seep into the bottom end of the buck and frame.

Mac