highperformance
Registered Users
Posts:13
 |
| 08/09/2007 3:28 PM |
|
| Are there any industry professionals out there looking at SABS? I stumbled upon them a year ago, and curious to know what you guys think. If you haven't seen them before, check out www.strataca.com.
This is what I know: They use EPS core and GFRC (glass fiber reinforced concrete) shell inside and out to create a strong, relatively light, waterproof, fully enclosed structure. I am not an engineer, architect, or building system expert. What shouldn't I pursue this option for my next house? |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
|
| 02/22/2008 6:02 PM |
|
I saw the new building technology SABS at the International Builders' Show in Orlando last week. It consists of EPS and Glass Fiber Reinforced Concrete (GFRC). Here is their web site: www.strataus.com I picked up a small sample to show my friends. Available in 4", 8", 12" and 16" thickness with 1/4" GFRC on each side. It is used for basements (12"), walls (8"), floors, and roofs. No sheet rock (drywall) required inside or stucco outside. Wiring goes in the foam before shotcreting. Tremendous R-value. Light weight, water-resistant, etc. I was quoted a very low price per square foot for an 8" thick wall.
Has anyone in this forum checked out this technology? Did I understand their claims correctly? Please let me know what you think about this system before I use it.
|
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
|
|
robinnc
Registered Users
Posts:115
|
| 02/22/2008 7:23 PM |
|
Looks like another version of SIPS. They leave alot of questions unanswered on the web site. How to attach floor joists, run elec, etc etc....The ONLY option for exterior from what I saw was just stucco?
|
|
|
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
|
| 02/22/2008 8:42 PM |
|
Looks like another version of SIPS.
Not quite. They don't call for, or show, any post & beam infrastructure like you have with SIPs.
The ONLY option for exterior from what I saw was just stucco?
That's because it appears from their ESR report the concrete layer on exterior and interior form an integral part of the load bearing structure of the system.
The main kicker from their ESR report:
"4.2.1 General: To ensure structural integrity, the SABSTM' must be subjected to a structural analysis, prior to construction, conducted by registered design professionals trained and certified by SIG. The structural analysis must be used to determine structural capacities for all portions of the SABSTM' structure. As the SABSTM' structure is a continuous structural system, the finite element method of analysis (FEA) can be used to determine the structural resistance."
Not sure how many local building engineers are going to have an FEA computer program or be certified by SIG. I wouldn't be surprised to see the cost of the material is either grossly inflated to cover the cost of SIG doing the engineering, or the material would be very competitive but you pay a healthy price for the required engineering. And the drawings have to be stamped by an engineer registered in the state of construction. I seriously doubt SIG has engineers registered in all 50 states. SIG is Strata International Group
The report also says max uniform floor load is 40 psf and no concentrated loads. This just covers the IRC required 40 PSF live load with nothing left for dead load.
I'd stay away from this system.
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
|
| 02/22/2008 9:45 PM |
|
I was told the engineering fee was $1.50 per SF and the thickness of the GFRC can be increased to carry more load. I was told and shown that the walls are anchored to the concrete foundation with GFRC and then additional concrete on top of the GFRC.
I was also told that I could buy the foam, sand and cement locally but I had to use SABS copolymer admixture and GFRC.
I still have a lot to learn about this new system.
|
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1329
|
| 02/22/2008 10:06 PM |
|
Posted By dmaceld on 02/22/2008 8:42 PM
Not quite. They don't call for, or show, any post & beam infrastructure like you have with SIPs.
Hello? SIPS Do Not require any external support system. None, nada. The only time that you need embedded support is usually for point loads(and that support is inside of the panels).
It sounds like you think that SIPS are only used for 'Skinning a Frame'. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
robinnc
Registered Users
Posts:115
|
| 02/22/2008 11:26 PM |
|
Thanks for the info dmaceld. I agree.
|
|
|
|
|
dmaceld
Registered Users
Posts:494
|
| 02/23/2008 1:57 AM |
|
Posted By PanelCrafters on 02/22/2008 10:06 PM Posted By dmaceld on 02/22/2008 8:42 PM
Not quite. They don't call for, or show, any post & beam infrastructure like you have with SIPs. Hello? SIPS Do Not require any external support system. None, nada. The only time that you need embedded support is usually for point loads(and that support is inside of the panels). It sounds like you think that SIPS are only used for 'Skinning a Frame'.
I don't recall seeing anything on the SABS web site or ESR report that addresses point load support. To me, being only passingly acquainted with Finite Element Analysis, the fact they call for an FEA analysis is saying the structural capacity is not robust, meaning there's not a lot of room for error, and therefore you have to really engineer the system to avoid failures. Kind of like comparing an airplane to a Mack truck. They both work as intended, but which one has a lot of extra meat and muscle built in and will survive abuse better?
|
|
Building house - what a way to spend retirement! |
|
|
PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1329
|
| 02/23/2008 11:00 AM |
|
Posted By dmaceld on 02/23/2008 1:57 AM
Don't SIPs usually have a 2x between adjacent panels?
That would depend on the spline system being used. Many systems use 3" strips of OSB to connect the panels. SIPS are also part of the IRC. Stay within the guidelines, and no engineering is required. |
|
....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
|
|
irnivek
Registered Users
Posts:272
|
| 02/23/2008 7:50 PM |
|
dmaceld:
Will save up for an airplane, fill it with gravel and let you know. hahahah
Kevin |
|
|
|
|
gm9256
Registered Users
Posts:5
|
| 02/25/2008 4:17 PM |
|
SABS infinite advantages:
- If anyone has worked with RAW EPS you know how easy it is to cut, shape, move, assemble with etc.
- Install your EPS simple.... then coat with GFRC... NOT SHOTCRETE... GFRC is low pressure and uses small pumping equipment and easy to apply
- that is all this system is!
- This system does not hold you to any chart or structural members. This system has been and still is being used to create huge pieces of fake rock that have no other structural members or supports of any kind.
- Structural engineering on this product costs between 1 - 2$ a square foot
- Under the current ER you can build anywhere in the US
- The paperwork behind this product is NOT a problem.
- Under the current ER this product has structural allowances for residential and small commercial projects
- If you do not understand what SABS is allowed to build under the current ER you are encouraged to call them
- This product uses less material than any other alternative system
- If you are realistic about the future of Green Building you will see that this system is the future
- This system had almost 20 years of research and development before it was brought to market
- Scrap EPS bagged & recycled into new block, GFRC ground and Recycled, GFRC stuck to foam Ground together and recycled... No other framing material on the job site.
I have worked with this product before hands on and from a plan submittal side. If you have any questions feel free to ask.
gerretmartin9922@yahoo.com
|
|
|
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:112
|
| 02/26/2008 3:40 PM |
|
What about interior/exterior finishing? Can you screw in a brick tie? Can sheet rock be screwed directly to the product?
Leonard
|
|
|
|
|
san diego sips
Registered Users
Posts:10
|
| 02/26/2008 5:47 PM |
|
the big negative that nobody has brought up is that as a contractor I would be responsable for all of third party structural testing (ESR 4.4.2) a hidden cost, and to build with this system alot of people have to SIG certified (ESR 4.2.1 4.4.2 and 4.3.1) another hidden cost and as stated before SIG is Strata International Group the makers of SABS. if you are considering building with this system i would use caution and throughly read through their ESR.
http://www.strataus.com/ESR-1638.pdf
|
|
|
|
|
gm9256
Registered Users
Posts:5
|
| 02/27/2008 10:45 AM |
|
4.4.2 a third party lab charges 20$ per break I have to supply 3 batches of 6. Total $360 (hidden cost #1) If you buy a license to build from Strata anyone you bring to training can be certified. This is no additional cost.
As for the finishing question. Yes you can screw anything directly to the coating. As for finishing put what ever you want on the outside and inside. Stucco fake rock brick siding (the finished SABS wall is like a scratch coat you can apply stucco dirrectly to it without wire foam etc). As for the roof you can also put anything on it. SABS is rated to be an exterior finish but it is possible to get hairline cracks in the roof so laying down conventional water proofing material and roof coverings is practiced.
Again if you have questions about the ESR keep posting. I have built with this system before i know what it can and cannot do and what costs are involved.
Thanks, |
|
|
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
|
| 02/27/2008 11:30 AM |
|
gm9256,
Thank you for the info about the SABS system. Maybe you know the answer to the following question:
I wonder if the SABS system can be used for floors on a sand or gravel base like a raised slab? Normally, with a raised slab, concrete blocks are used to form the slab. Sand or gravel is used within the form to raise the slab above finished grade. After placing a vapour barrier, the concrete slab is placed. My question is, could the expanded polystyrene foam board be used for fill and insulation instead of sand or gravel? Would covering all sides of the expaned polystyrene with GFRC allow the foam board to be used under a concrete slab in the Southeast? Another way of saying this is, will the thin GFRC coating protect the polystyrene from the termites. Although there is no food value in the polystyrene, I understand that termites could nest in it and gain access to the home through cracks in the slab.
|
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
|
|
gm9256
Registered Users
Posts:5
|
| 02/27/2008 11:54 AM |
|
I'm kind of confused if there is a structural questions here.
As for termites:
Termites cannot get through the GFRC so if you coat all sides you should be safe.
Also you can buy EPS that has additives in it that repel termites.
SABS has been used as a floor and you can pour concrete on top of it. (as a side note)
Also as a note SABS cannot be used as a finish floor because you could puncture the coating. This puncture poses no structural threat but you obviously would not want this, so floating concrete on SABS floor is common practice.
Thanks,
Gerret |
|
|
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
|
| 02/27/2008 12:08 PM |
|
Gerret,
My question dealt with the termite issue. You answered it quite well. Thank you again.
|
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
|
|
lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:112
|
| 02/27/2008 12:49 PM |
|
Gerret,
OK....so what would be the rough costs breakdown for materials and labor to install basement,1st, second floors all totaling about 15,000 sq ft² wall space?
Thanks,
Leonard
|
|
|
|
|
gm9256
Registered Users
Posts:5
|
| 02/27/2008 2:44 PM |
|
These are some of the prices I'm coming across... These numbers are about a year or so old but should give you an idea.
Strata retails material for $58.00 covering 70sf making material about $0.83
A local installer quoted me $1.02sf in labor to apply the coating
EPS sells for about $0.25bf 4" - 8" walls $2 or $4
so your looking at about $1.50 + 2($1.02 + $0.82) = $5.18 a square foot of wall coated both sides
Costing the EPS install is a tricky because you have to schedule other trades... a crew of 2 people can be expected to put a panel (4' x 8') up every 10 - 15 min.
If you round up to about $6.oo i think you would get close.... which i think they were saying at the building show in Florida...
However building basements with this product i don't think would be cost affective. I would recommend doing another system for the basement and building SABS on top.
Thanks,
Gerret |
|
|
|
|
Alton
Registered Users
Posts:314
|
| 02/27/2008 3:02 PM |
|
Gerret,
Thank you for the detailed info. At the home show in Orlando, the person working the booth, told me he thought the cost for labor and materials on an 8" thick wall would be about $6.50 per SF. This would include the 1/4" GFRC coating on both sides. He also told me that 12" thick walls should be used for the basement. This approximate price and thick basement walls appealed to me. I believed he also said that increasing the thickness of the GFRC coating would increase the strength of the panel. If so, I would want to use the 4" ledge on the basement wall as a bearing for floor trusses or SABS panels. Do you think this 4" ledge could be used as a bearing?
|
|
Alton C. Keown
Residential Designer and Construction Technology Consultant
Auburn, Alabama
334 329-0957 AT&T Cellular |
|
|