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Forums > Green Building Technologies > Insulating Concrete Forms (ICFs) > Subject: water penetration in rastra-type wall

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DanielaUser is Offline
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09/21/2007 10:36 AM  
Hello everyone,
I'm desperately looking for advice from experinced rastra builders.
We are building a rastra home in Austin, Tx area. A Cape Cod plan, all exterior walls rastra (10f high and end gables). Very difficult process thanks to careless GC. Now we have the cherry on the cake: big water penetration during rain on the entire east wall, the most exposed here to wind/rain. One can see the shapes of the forms under the stucco and there is water inside where the wall meets the foundation. The wall is finished with stucco and has a wood deck attached to it , inbetween first and second stories. No mesh/waterproofing membrane has been used and the ledger is bolted into raw rastra.
The deck  is accessible by a pair of french doors from the upstairs gable. My builder is focusing on fixing up any cracks/flushing  around this door and spraying a rubber finish on it.  All tis is good, but I can't believe that the quantity of water I saw and the spread all across 30 feet could be explained only by penetration around the doors sitting in the middle. Just common sense makes me thing that there must be an issue related to the deck attached to all 30 feet of wall.
Thank you for your input.
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09/21/2007 11:04 AM  
Posted By Daniela on 09/21/2007 10:36 AM
there is water inside where the wall meets the foundation. The wall is finished with stucco and has a wood deck attached to it , inbetween first and second stories. No mesh/waterproofing membrane has been used and the ledger is bolted into raw rastra.
The deck  is accessible by a pair of french doors from the upstairs gable.

Water inside the stucco or inside the house? Can you post some photos, especially of how the ledger is installed. How about running water with a hose on the wall one area at a time? You might be able to more definitively determine where rain water is getting into the wall.

I see Rastra is a post & beam concrete configuration. Can you describe how the contractor made sure concrete filled every void in the blocks?


Building house - what a way to spend retirement! It's done! We're living in it!
DanielaUser is Offline
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09/21/2007 11:27 AM  

Thanks for your interest.
Water mainly inside stucco but also some inside along bottom of the wall, weird because there is a brick ledge.
My GC tells me the ledger was bolted with redheads into concrete, right on unfinished rastra, then stucco was applied on exposed wall. Finally I would say that my contractor made sure of nothing , this house was really a learning experience for us...I will ask my husband to post a few pictures asap.

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09/23/2007 3:20 AM  

Since Rastra is very porous, basically a very light concrete block, I doubt whether the voids being properly filled with concrete is relevant to the leakage issue.

The idea of doing a controlled water test is a good one.  I would start at one end of the deck, away from the doors.  If water penetration appears, you know what the problem is.  Based on your description, my bet is that the ledger is the issue, not the doors.

As an aside, you say that this is a 2 story, but the Rastra walls are 10f high, so I am not visualizing your house very well.  Is one of the stories of different construction...or is this condition at a gabled end?

Keep us posted.

xexpat

 

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09/23/2007 11:22 AM  
Yes, the deck runs across the short side of the house, which is gabled. The house is 30 feet by 60 feet, rastra wall goes 10 feet high in the 60 feet sides and all the way up inside the end gables on teh 30 feet sides. Basically all the exterior wall surface is rastra, the small second story is inside the gables,  and also has stick framed dormers. We used a standing seam metal roof and icynene insulation under the roof and dormer's walls. The exterior is precisely 4 feet native stone all around and sto stucco directely applied to rastra for  the rest.

I will definitively proceed with the testing idea - great, thank you - but I imagine it won't be easy to see unless we pour a lot of water.
I was hoping that a member of this community with a bunch of rstra construction under his belt has been confronted to this kind of situation and would indicate me the causes/remedies in general.
For me, but I am no authority in this field, the flushing of the doors and entire deck and the ledger attachment have to be faulty.

I like rastra and don't regret to have used it, but I wish to have a more knowledgeble/experienced GC. Before starting to built I have been a long time visitor of this talk , it did help me into making a decision about using a more performant wall system.  I'm getting close to the end of the construction and I can say, especially since I was very involved in the process, that getting green features into a house is not the most costly part, it is building custom .
DanielaUser is Offline
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09/23/2007 10:51 PM  
Hi Bruce,
I got your last message in my personal email but I don't see it in this forum.
We used an intergral color stucco, Sto, no mesh, no joints. Marley Porter, a top Austin and national architect, has been doing this since years without having problems. No cracking so far except around a door and the deck because my GC wasn't inspired to get some silicone/ flexible whatever where the stucco meets the wood... Now I heard Marley Porter that I does happen often that the rastra wall most exposed to wind/rain has humidity problems, the water penetrates through the stucco itself, but a rubber product like miracle cover would solve this in most cases. Now all openings in the wall (windows, doors) need to be properly done, meaning what exactely... I'm very informed about green products but I still didn't turn into a builder after this insightful construction. I continue to think that the main problem in general with this wall system is the installation of doors and windows, which my builder seems to ignore. My situation in worse because of this deck, but I was fairly much obliged to get it on that side of the house, I want a breeze in summer!
The inside rastra have been covered with dry wall mud. I picked a rastra-type wall over the others icf because of its breathability; it wouldn't make any sense for me to install a vapor barrier (except where obviously required, like maybe for my ledger) and loose this essential quality. Brick and stone are porous too, I had a couple of wet vertical runs in my stone belt.

I'm getting ready to do my water test and eventually hire an inspector with a infrared camera.
I would gladly exchange with you my rastra information/experience if you give me your phone number.
Daniela (no ciao, but la revedere/au revoir)
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09/24/2007 1:26 AM  
Posted By Daniela on 09/23/2007 10:51 PM
I picked a rastra-type wall over the others icf because of its breathability; it wouldn't make any sense for me to install a vapor barrier (except where obviously required, like maybe for my ledger) and loose this essential quality. Brick and stone are porous too, I had a couple of wet vertical runs in my stone belt.


Ouch! I think you may have missed an important bit of knowledge in your research and construction, or perchance did you just happen to use the wrong word when you wrote "vapor barrier?" You are right on track about wanting breathability, but I wonder if by chance you have gotten vapor barrier confused with water barrier. House wraps such as Tyvek are not vapor barriers, but they are water barriers. Poly sheeting is both a vapor and water barrier. The evolution of building science knowledge has now come to realize that in all but the very coldest climates you do not want a vapor barrier on the wall, because it can trap moisture in the wall and lead to mold, etc. This is your thinking also, right? But it is vitally important to keep liquid water from penetrating the wall and that is accomplished by using a water resistant barrier (WRB) to shed water down and away from the wall. House wraps are wrbs, they stop liquid water but allow vapor to pass through. They also form a wind barrier.

If the breathability of Rastra is why you chose it, you would not have significantly compromised that with house wrap. If, as you suspect, the water problem is coming from around the doors and windows due to faulty flashing, that can be complicated by the lack of a wrb. Generally, doors and windows are flashed in a "shingle" method, meaning each segment of flashing overlaps the one below it so as water travels down it is always diverted to the outer surface. The wrb is the last barrier for water that gets past the flashing and it will carry the water all the way to the bottom behind the siding material. With no membrane and a porous wall material, water that gets in behind around the doors and windows has no way of being forced to come to the outer surface. You also have the same situation with the ledger. If water that falls on the top edge of the ledger is not carried to the outside with a combination of flashing and wrb, it will follow the wall down, and in the case of Rastra, get it wet.

It's interesting you mention brick and stone. In a building science seminar I attended the presenter mentioned that because of the porosity of brick, walls with a brick veneer have some of the highest moisture levels of any wall configuration, particularly after rain. Water vapor passes right through and then condenses inside the wall. That's where the wrb comes into play. It will carry the condensed moisture down to the botom where there are provisions for it to drain away harmlessly, but allow vapor to dry out into the interior of the house as well as to the outside.


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09/24/2007 11:04 PM  
Thank you Dmaceld,
I'm taking good note. By the way, I wanted some thermal mass too, if not a stick wall with icynene would have satisfied me.
So what would you suggest for my ledger? I can't pull it out to get a WRB behind...
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09/25/2007 11:09 AM  
Do the water test first to more clearly define the problem, i.e. ledger caused vs door and window flashing caused. Then let's work on solutions. Did you get any photos of it yet?


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Mark FlemingUser is Offline
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09/25/2007 4:47 PM  

If your ledger is attached with tapcons directly to the ICF block, that would be my guess as to the water intrusion site.  All of the water draining down the gable end would have to cross this point and could infiltrate the raw block.  I worked on a project that addressed this issue by using traditional stucco flashing at this point.  It was essentially a large L flashing with a metal mesh on the wall side that extended up the block.  The ledger was attached and then the stucco was applied over the flashing, which in turn wrapped over the deck so that water would not drain back towards the legder.

Another project had a 3" drip edge formed into the Rastra.  Raw Rastra block was ripped into trim pieces and added right above the ledger.  The trim was stuccoed into place.  The rain runs down the side and then drips out onto the deck away from the ledger.

I think I like the flashing idea better and this could be accomplished with L flashing and EIFs type fiberglass mesh, however, it is a solution that must be incorporated into the deck when built. 

After construction is complete, I'm not sure what the remedy would be.  The very best caulking, applied behind a flashing strip, might be the only solution.

If water enters the Rastra block, it drains down through.  If given enough distance (more than a couple feet), water can migrate the 10" block thickness to the building interior.  I've designed my house in Rastra, and I have to admit that as I'm getting ready to build I am still thinking about the window drainage issues.  My present thought is to stucco the openings, install the windows, and then a second stucco to seal them in place. 


Mark Fleming

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09/25/2007 9:31 PM  
Thank you Mark, it is what I was suspecting. We didn't yet do any water hosing test. my GC doesn't seem concerned.
I dare recommend that you take a look at Durisol ; it is a grid wall too, for me superior to rastra actually, made out of encapsulated recycled wood, greener, heavier, less porous I think. The overall cost is driven up because electrical and plumbing are more difficult to install, this is why , since I was on a tight budget, I didn't use it. They also offer if I recall well specials stop blocks for windows/doors. I also learned that some windows have wee holes for water elimination and those seem safer as long as your subs don't stucco over them...
As far as my own ledger problem is concerned I think the caulking is going to be a very short term solution, meaning in the rain and baking sun (Texas) hitting this very exposed side of the house will probably very quickly deteriorate it.
Last question; do you think that water would be able to navigate trough rastra from the corners (badly flashed ) of the double doors to the ends of the wall, meaning around 12 feet on both sides?

Daniela
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09/26/2007 11:02 AM  
The door area and flashing would be on the top of my list to check.
But as the porous charachteristics of stucco above were mentioned, definitley keep in mind stucco is never waterproof, and only a couple of products can be used on horizontal planes. We mandate all our stucco installs to use an elastomeric paint for waterproofing purposes, even when stucco is mixed with color.
CMU builders such as in Fl. know this well, that if Link or another product isn't used, water intrusion and efflouressence is inevitable.

Pictures would help if you can...
Kevin
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09/26/2007 11:05 AM  
oh, and we space all exterior ledgers off of the wall 3/4 inch to allow ventilation and drainage behind the ledger.
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10/03/2007 1:53 PM  

Daniela,

I don't have a good visual of how your water is migrating, so I can't give an opinion.  Rastra is too pourous to allow much capillary action (presently being discussed in another thread), which means the entrance point is likely higher than the interior wet spot.  The other method by which water travels "the wrong way" is through pressure differentials.  If your leak is on the windward side of the house, it's possible that air pressure can make the water travel up and sideways.  Again, I think that Rastra would likely be too pourous to really transfer water up or sideways more than a few inches.  Although I've never tested it, I would guess that intrusion at about a 45 degree angle would be about the maximum.

When tracing leaks, the two common mistakes are thinking that the water you see is 1) coming from somewhere close and 2) that the water is from a leak.  It's likely coming from above the leak, but that's anywhere above within the 45 degree angle.  The second mistaken "leak" is condensation from the inside, which shouldn't be likely with your material, unless you have high moisture and maybe a metal thermal break inside the wall.

Mark Fleming

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03/09/2008 7:35 PM  
Try contacting Harvey John @ 520-907-3762 cell or @ his office 520-571-1424 He is in Arizona and the main supplier of Rastra
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03/09/2008 10:10 PM  
I've built a fair share of Rastra houses as well as Durisol homes....One thing for certain about these products is this...if you build it for "breathability", then you are building it with a dry sponge and when it rains, it will soak up as much of the water as it can. I have Rastra in my barn holding up shelves, these blocks are on dirt (barn has no floor)....the shelves rotted out on the lower level where in contact with the block in a very short time....shelves are 15" up off of the ground...shelves above are fine... I'm in Central Texas, near Temple. If you care to pay the diesel fuel cost, I'll come look at the house and make suggestions. Sounds like the wall is not sealed in any way. EIFS stucco is not WATERPROOF.... Window and door detailing must be error free. You may be better off forgetting about breathability and put on an elastomeric paint, detail around openings and come up with a plan to seal/flash the ledger....a tough task with the deck in place....otherwise the problem will never go away, it may "disappear", but it will be there and will return later. Ian with ICF Builders www.ICFResource.com
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04/01/2008 4:42 PM  
Thank you again to all of you.
We ended up by installing a wide flashing overlaping the deck and as much caulking as possible. We did not have any other (visible) water penetration since. I would still be curious to mesure the water content of the wall after a good rain...I think that Ian is perfectely right using the terms of dry sponge for those walls, waterproofing all penetrations in the blocks seems essential. And yes Ian, I would gladly pay diesel and lunch for a visit, at your best convenience ,we are near Bee Caves, Austin, (512 497-1607) especially the door/window detailing would be interesting to discuss, in my opinion our GC didn't feel at all concerned with this. I wished so much that the manufacturers would oblige anyone pretending to install those walls professionnally to go through a few classroom hours about their properties/proper installation. Also I feel obliged to mention that the blocks we got installed are not Rastra TM, but Amazon.
I would like to waterproof the stucco anyway, could somebody recommend me a specific product knowing that we used Sto, mixed with color?
By the way, we live now in the house since four months and are happy with its energy efficiency and feel.
Daniela
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01/16/2009 5:16 PM  
I have used many ICFs but not a Composite ICF like Amazon.

With Composite ICFs I envisioned using a peel and stick around openings, flashing on top, flashing on top of a deck ledger and stucco or synthetic stucco coating applied directly to the Composite. Is this adequate?

If not, is there an additive for the coating to make it shed water?

If a house wrap or moisture barrier is required, then the stucco is not applied directly to the composite ICF and lathe wood have to be used. And it would be difficult to attach the lathe, since there is not ties. This scenario would be a big negative to composite ICFs.

Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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01/17/2009 3:53 AM  
Posted By ICFconstruction on 01/16/2009 5:16 PM
I have used many ICFs but not a Composite ICF like Amazon.

With Composite ICFs I envisioned using a peel and stick around openings, flashing on top, flashing on top of a deck ledger and stucco or synthetic stucco coating applied directly to the Composite. Is this adequate?

If not, is there an additive for the coating to make it shed water?

If a house wrap or moisture barrier is required, then the stucco is not applied directly to the composite ICF and lathe wood have to be used. And it would be difficult to attach the lathe, since there is not ties. This scenario would be a big negative to composite ICFs.
I have looked at the Amazon composite product because my new home will be in that area.

I think you have to treat composite ICF such as Rastra and Amazon as you would CMU from a detailing standpoint. 

Many have put stucco directly on composite ICF.  Personally, I would not in the Gulf Coast area...in Arizona, probably OK.  I would want a drainage plane outside that porous block.

Bruce

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01/17/2009 7:32 AM  
In my opinion that would be one of there major benefits; applying stucco directly to the ICF. Without that benefit Composite ICFS may not be worth using.

Can anyone else weight in on the application of stucco directly to Composite ICFs?

Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net
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