mysafehaven
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| 12/12/2007 5:21 AM |
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Last October when it was raining there were puddles of water in the basement. My GC said that it is normal because the sump pump is not yet working. We were doing the electricals and cutting through the walls when we noticed the floor was again yet and when we cut an area in the ICF wall, water gushed out of it because there is a huge air pocket, no cement through and through. The GC said he will patch it up. This is just one area but I am afraid there are more air pockets and concerned about putting drywall then the water will penetrate the styrofoam and drywall will wick the water causing mold. I want to make sure all the air pockets are taken cared of before we put the dry wall. Is there a way of finding air pockets in the wall? I dunno like infra red maybe?
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Opus
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| 12/12/2007 8:24 AM |
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| If you tap on the wall you might be able to hear a different sound in the wall if there is a large void. Voids in the concrete are not your main problem , although I would be concerned about them. Poke a welding rod through the foam where you suspect a void is. Your problem is that no water should be reaching that wall to begin with. You should have no water in your basement. Patching the wall will not stop the water if there is pressure on the other side. You need proper grading outside to keep the water away from the walls and a waterprofing and drainage system on the outside of the walls . Don't even think about drywall if there is that much water coming through your walls. There are several drainage and waterproffinng systems that work great. Do a search on this site. Fix it now whileyou can. |
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renangle
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| 12/12/2007 10:05 AM |
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| Depending on where you are, but if in the Midwest (especially MN) I would try to track down Brent Anderson of Brent Anderson Assoc. He is an engineer in 7 states and a ICF/Foundation whiz! He will be at the WOC in January as a speaker. I believe his number is 763-784-8364 |
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gregj
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| 12/12/2007 4:45 PM |
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Another GC who doesn't believe in internal consolidation! Your infrared idea sounds like it has potential but as Opus said you can generally find any large voids by tapping on the foam. Large voids could be a very serious structural issue.
Worst case would be the GC should excavate the entire outside wall, remove the exterior foam, fix all the voids, reapply foam, apply real waterproofing, and a real drainage system and backfill. But that is worst case, you'll need to figure out how extensive the voids are and where the water is leaking in. It may just be an isolated void and the waterproofing may just have an issue in one spot.
You might want to call in an independent expert to evaluate the basement walls and waterproofing and have him write up a comprehensive report on the deficiencies. Then see what the GC will do for you.
Good luck. |
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Mark Ross
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| 12/12/2007 6:01 PM |
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Easiest way to confirm is to not only use the tapping method, however get a BBQ skewer for cabobs, and prob into the wall at regular intervals, and ensure that the prob only goes in the distance that equals the thickness of the foam. BTW patching the holes wont stop your water penetration, and you may seriously want to question the structural integrity of the building. And yes, much to everyones chagrin, please check the bottom of the wall for graveling, by simply probing for loose concrete, or removing the bottom couple of inches of foam in areas the foam is not bonded to the concrete. Sorry guys, but voids typically are indications of gravelling.
Additionally is you need additional info please contact me, I will provide what I can. Sorry for your troubles, not all ICF's are like this, actually very few are.
Mark Ross |
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Quantum
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| 12/12/2007 9:09 PM |
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| I think I speak for most of us when I say that I am appalled. |
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mysafehaven
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| 12/12/2007 9:09 PM |
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| I will do the tapping method and the skewer method but the house is 2500 sq ft. I am quite disappointed with ICF right now. I wish I have done superior walls instead. I have heard of air pockets but I did not understand the consequences of it. We are hoping to start dry wall this January now I do not know what is going to happen. The bank wants us to close by April because we already extended it for 6 mos. I watched the application of the ICF and I know they did good water proofing. The grading is good right now so that water should flow away from the building. I am not sure I understand gravelling. Is it when the bottom of the ICF is crumbling? |
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Quantum
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| 12/12/2007 9:15 PM |
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You do not have good waterproofing, and this is proven by the water in your walls. It is very important that this be fixed by doing what gregj suggests.
This isn't ICF's fault. Your contractor used too thick of a concrete (low slump), and he did not consolidate adequately with a vibrator... if at all.
Gravelling is what some say happens when you drop the mud from too much height, but that's not what happened here. You have voids, not crumbly rocks. |
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James Eggert
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| 12/12/2007 9:24 PM |
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"I watched the application of the ICF and I know they did good water proofing."
Sorry, but that's not true at all. Had they waterproofed correctly you would not be having these issues of water flowing! I would not continue ANY additional work until this is remedied! |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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walltech
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| 12/12/2007 9:37 PM |
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Sorry to hear of your problems with the install. I would have to agree that it is time to hire a second opionion
before you move on any further. Even with voids in the wall it's logical that the walls still wouldn't leak with
appropriate waterproofing.
Dave |
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mysafehaven
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| 12/12/2007 9:41 PM |
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| The expert you are talking about, what kind. Is Brent Anderson the right person and how much does he charge? |
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icf or bust
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| 12/12/2007 10:07 PM |
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| I know Brent as well. I don't think he is the guy you need. Although he is very knowledgeable. Could be a variety of things. Probably bad slump, mix design. One thing is for sure it is not the icf's fault. |
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mysafehaven
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| 12/12/2007 10:34 PM |
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| What do I need to do then? I am getting nervous. Please help. We owe $350,000 right now and it is not yet finished. We thought we used the best material with ICF, radiant and geothermal heating and we are now in dillema of finishing the house. The GC job was to do the ICF, heat, plumbing, excavation. His 1 yr warranty will end soon. I wish we never built this house. It is becoming a nightmare. |
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walltech
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| 12/12/2007 10:39 PM |
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His warranty in Michigan is 18 months! I can only suspect that you didn't check them out.
Dave |
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irnivek
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| 12/12/2007 11:13 PM |
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mysafehaven:
So, is the sump pump working NOW?
High water table all around the foundation, esp. if the contractor backfilled completely with clear stone, puts amazing hydrostatic pressure on the waterproofing membrane, so make sure the pump works properly and pumps the water far away.
You say that you "watched the application of ICF and I know they did good waterproofing" Tell me more about this. Did they vibrate walls? Did they waterproof AND backfill as per manufactures specs.
To remediate your water intrusion problem, some pictures would help if you are able to post them.
I would like to know,
What kind of waterproofing was used? We have seen waterproofing fail due to poor installation, and also due to improper backfill.
What stage of construction are you in? We have seen ICF's leak due to inferior/incomplete roofing. Last year an ICF contractor nearby us dug up a foundation three times, it turned out the roofer was the problem! The ICF contractor was not compensated for his good faith efforts at remediation! We have also seen moisture intrusion because of lack of flashing/caulking around windows.
We have seen moisture problems due to improper plumbing, when fiitings weren't soldered..... And leaky hot water heaters.
Do you have brick veneer? If so, was ICF brickledge used? Was the air gap behind the veneer grouted solid below grade? More importantly, was the brickledge flashed/waterproofed?
If you want more specific help, you will have to be much more specific on what is going on. For instance, does the entire basement have puddles? During a driving rain or any rain?
Quantum:
Blasting away at the ICF contractor as culpable for all the problems is a crappy thing to do without asking a single poignant question. From what I read, ONE void has been determined. I don't think there is currently a need nor justification to crash any trust that mysafehaven currently has in the ICF contractor, this society is plenty litigious enough already. Lets wait it out before passing judgement, shall we?
Kevin |
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Opus
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| 12/13/2007 1:07 AM |
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mysafehaven:
You have 2 seperate problems here . The voids in your walls and also the lack of proper waterproofing and drainage. The voids in the walls may not be a huge disaster. The walls have to be built well enough that they do not cause the water proofing to fail. Possibly the void was so large that whatever waterproofing you had failed in that area. The real problem is having that much water there in the first place. I doubt if superior walls would make much difference. If you have that much hydrostatic pressure it would find its way through any wall that did not have proper drainage around the foundation and real waterproofing. I have seen lots of damp proofing called water proofing. If you do not have drainage around the bottom of the foundation and proper water proofing then you need to address that. You say you have proper grading around the house. If so where is the water coming from? Do you have gutters and where does that water go? Does it just dump next to your house. First FIND WHERE THE WATER IS COMING FROM! Stop it from getting to your foundation. As irvinek suggests it could be something you have overlooked- some other construction defect. I had a house with improper grading, no water proffing and a crack in the elbow of a drain line from the kitchen sink. That I found after thinking all the problems were fixed and putting up new drywall. That leak was small compared to the rest of the problems so I didn't find it untill they were fixed.This is where infrared scanning can help since a leak in the house can show up as a cool area. Second put drainage and waterproofing where it is obiviously lacking. Third find the voids in the walls and fill them if they are large. It's not the end of the world. If you have to excavate it will cost you some money. I have fixed problems like this. First understand what is happening and then the solution will be eaisly seen. You may need to find a local expert to do some detective work and then make the contractor fix it. Finish your house and enjoy it. |
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mysafehaven
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Posts:14
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| 12/13/2007 8:34 AM |
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| He used a peel and stick black water proofing that comes recommended with ARRX. I will try to take pictures this weekend. I am hoping I will be able to take pictures of the water flowing but it might have turned to ice by now. I have checked this guy for almost 5 yrs watching him put up 2 ICF houses in the area. He is a well known contractor of ICF. We have stucco all around the house. We have all the framing done, plumbing electrical, stucco, heat but no Gutters yet. The gutters are going to be put on in january. my problem is what if the gutter is not the problem and we put drywall up and come spring the basement will be flooded? We had the excavator grade so water will be running away from the house. |
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irnivek
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| 12/13/2007 8:55 AM |
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Again, I don't know the geometry of your home or location of water inside, but as you are investigating, be sure to check around every window and door for proper flashing, also all roof flashings. For instance, when a lower roof terminates in the side wall of a higher portion of the house, the step flashing is often not tied into the stucco properly. I know of a stucco home right now that leaks because of this.
Take some pictures of your porch and deck areas (if applicable) A stem wall for a porch can act as a bathtub if lower drainage hasn't been addressed.
What kind of stucco? Were the manufacturers installation procedures met or exceeded? All horizontal planes are flashed?
Keep in mind with peel and stick that should water enter the wall ABOVE the peel and stick, the peel and stick in fact keeps the water on the interior of the home.....
Kevin |
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Quantum
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| 12/13/2007 9:53 AM |
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Posted By irnivek on 12/13/2007 8:55 AM
Quantum: Blasting away at the ICF contractor as culpable for all the problems is a crappy thing to do without asking a single poignant question. From what I read, ONE void has been determined. I don't think there is currently a need nor justification to crash any trust that mysafehaven currently has in the ICF contractor, this society is plenty litigious enough already. Lets wait it out before passing judgement, shall we?
Please don't try and backfill for a poor installation. This is dishonest and allows problems to persist. Obviously from all your questions and confusion about this irnivek, you do not know what's wrong. I do. The idea is to make this right, now, before it really turns into a financial disaster for the client. I could say more, but no sense in arguing.
And WTH is this Blame the Victim stuff, with "why didn't you check him out"? Give the guy a break peoples.
mysafehaven, what should you do? You do not have to listen to me if you do not want to, but again what needs to be done is what gregj says in his 12/12/2007 4:45 PM. Use some method to determine how many voids (infrared, BBQ poker), and if many, or large voids (particularly at the bottom) he must excavate down to the footers and pull off that foam. Fill the voids, reapply foam (eh, new, foam), and then apply a good water barrier since it is clear you need it. Have him trowel on a cementitious waterproof coating or spray on a rubberized one (Blueskin, et al), and then put up dimpled membrane as per mfgrs directions. Peel'NStick is fine under Code if done well, but it is not enough when you have underground water flows. You need a triple-barrier: dimpled plastic, hydrostatic pressure relief (air gap), trowel-on barrier.
Just to make a few things clear, your water leakage will persist forever unless addressed, and it can not be properly fixed from the inside. Also, if there is one large void, there will be lots, mostly at the bottom (where concrete is needed most) and at top penetration corners.
You should pay for the difference in cost between peel'NStick and dimpled, but your contractor should pay for the rest since both problems are his fault.
Refer your contractor to this forum. There may be some racket and confusion here, but honest people will know who to listen to. I don't know where you are mysafehaven, but if you need a professional ICF man on-site (at least as a consultant) there are some here. I am not likely close as I am in WA state, but walltech or gregj may be in your area.
ICF is not the problem. The installation is. Some believe it to be simple; it is not in reality.
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James Eggert
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| 12/13/2007 4:19 PM |
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Quantum
I agree with the bulk of your post except......
You should pay for the difference in cost between peel'NStick and dimpled
No way, the client/homeowner paid for a waterproofing system that was either inadequate for the conditions or installed incorrectly. They should not pay for someone to practice. I've used the pns membranes, and you're right, if installed correctly they are fine, but conditions dictate not only their use, but how much care is required to install them for that particular problem!
As to the voids, I'll assume there are some, but it sounds like the waterproofing is the main issue.
mysafehaven
I'm not sure how your contract reads, but your worry about a warranty expiring may not be valid. It is very difficult to have a warranty offered for the items listed which cannot be completed due to who is doing them when. These situations do occur when the homeowner does 1/2 the work and a contractor does the other 1/2. Don't misunderstand me, homes are built with both contractors and homeowners side by side all the time, and most work out ok. This is not legal advice, the advice is get your attorney to read thru your contract and confirm your position.....now!
In the meantime, as everyone has stated, your waterproofing has a problem, and needs to be reviewed by an outside source. |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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