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Forums > Green Building Technologies > Insulating Concrete Forms (ICFs) > Subject: ICF in Florida - additional vapor barrier?

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BuntlyUser is Offline
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02/18/2008 7:39 AM  
Depends on relative humidity, dewpoint, and location of the moon,.......hee hee hee. Naw, I think it'll weigh one ounce more than where you started. I think after 3 or 4 days all the water will evaporate out and the block will return to it's original weight. This would be real "anal", but it would be interesting to do a test with a block which has foam density of 2 pcf vs one that has a density of 1.5 pcf. I'll bet the lower density block absorbs more water.

Bunt
woulfccUser is Offline
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02/18/2008 8:28 AM  

Well that is interesting,not as much as I had guessed but EPS dose take water on.

I have used forms that come factory wrapped that sat out in the rain and you could really feel the difference between them and a dry one.

 This is why I know that an icf and water have issues. Water vapor will pass though it as well as the concrete from inside the house and hit the dew point on the outside of the wall up north here. When the water freezes it will expand and push the defis off the wall.
 Now do you see why I think you need a DRAIN SCREEN , or rain screen in the mix.
If air movement is allowed drying will happen faster.
 So think (OK I'll bet) you will be dry and at the same or even less weight than when you started. ( beer and  brats)
 We make eps with water (steam) so it is able to pass trough it by design.
 I still wonder if we did it in beer and used duck tape what would happen. ( a red green thing)

 


Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c.
woulfccUser is Offline
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02/18/2008 8:38 AM  

What dose foam desity realy have to do with it?

Water will do the same thing no mater what the density is (is it stiil made with steam)

May be it will do it faster but water will still be a problem to deal with a rain screen /drain screen (or am I all wet?)

 


Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c.
BuntlyUser is Offline
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02/18/2008 8:56 AM  

The less dense panels have less eps per unit volume. Since the less dense panels have more air per volume, this air could be displaced with water. Just a guess,........only testing would tell. I wonder if forms that sit out in the elements with the rain, hot, cold, and a significant amount of time will have more moisture permeate into them. Might be psychological, but I have picked up forms that have been outside for a while, and I swear they were heavier than a new form. I also notice on hot sunny days when stacking a wall, you can hear the foam "poppping". I think this is the foam moving (sliding) over one another due to the heat,....who knows what this is doing to the foam at a molecular level.

 

Bunt

dmaceldUser is Offline
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Posts:494




02/18/2008 8:41 PM  
After 24 hours of drying the block is back to its original weight!! 1 lb 14.4 oz.

Sorry I can't join you in the beer and brats thing. Well I could with the brats, I just haven't made a habit of them. Have to pass on the beer though. My momma grew me up a tee totaler, and when I was old enough to decide for myself I decided to stay that way!


Building house - what a way to spend retirement!
woulfccUser is Offline
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02/18/2008 9:16 PM  

Now we got something here.

This is what I was getting at, The water will dry out if air and heat is allowed to remove it.

But if you put EFIS with out a rain screen or a drain screen on it and just reinforced it with fiberglass mesh so it wont fall off.

Where dose the water go?

 It can't evaporate so it travels into the foam deeper,and concrete and foam, and leaks into the home some were that you can't  even see that whats happening. This may even take 6 months for it to show up with out rain or water outside the home to explain what going on.
 This is my ? to you Am I all wet or dose this make sense.  I seen this and its all that I can come up with for what is happening.
Is it the EFIS problem  No it's not leaking right. 
 Well it may be just no letting the eps dry out from normal water vapor pushing its way out of the building.
 My short answer  to the original poster is not just vapor barrier but a place to drain the water behind the the barrier is needed.
Their is a block out their that this is built into and dose all of this if you pm me I will let you know what it is. No advertising here.
 I hope this helps
PS what about the beer and brat's or are we both right! COOL looks like a win / win


Changing how the world BUILDS!
One build at a time.
Woulf c.c.
Jim CUser is Offline
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Posts:18




02/26/2008 8:40 PM  
We don't use a barrier between the ICF and stucco or hardie. I've got frame jobs with hardie caulked on the bottom and felt paper 12 yrs old with no problems.  I'm in central FL
As far as stucco is concerned if it is tight to the wall the only porosity will be in the stucco and should dry out the same way it got there (there's no place for it to puddle up)
The eps serves as a bond breaker from the concrete as well.
Its my understanding that concrete is waterproof above 4000psi
mark pUser is Offline
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Posts:4




02/27/2008 2:29 PM  

Jim,

From what I understand, once the stucco is wet/ saturated say after heavy rains, when the air temp/sun increases this will cause some of the water to migrate inward into the EPS foam; it may also keep the stucco from drying itself out more quickly.

I'm not a builder but I am trying to determine if this issue would be a problem in Florida, where heavy rain/humidity is prevalent.

This concept of drainage is also recommended by cement.org for ICF construction, although I undestand that the building codes themselves don't require it. 

Just think that is easier to plan for water intrusion and built accordingly than finding out later, perhaps years from now that the EPS foam or stucco exterior is failing due to the presence of wetting/water behind the stucco.

Thanks for your input and to anyone else who cares to chime in,

Mark P

 

homebuilderUser is Offline
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Posts:6




04/22/2008 10:25 AM  
The Grailcoat Company LLC is no longer in business they filed to dissolution of the company in June of 2007 you can look it up at www.sunbiz.org and formed a new company D J Grail Company LLC.
They filed disolution saying expensed exceeded revenues.  They have sold alot of product with a 20 year warranty under the Grailcoat Company LLC and now do not have to cover any of it.  It is a shame that companies disolve and then form a new company to take more money from customers and not have to held liable.   I would be very leary of buying anything from the new company they probably will do the same thing.  They take your money upfront for orders and I know of a someone waiting a month later that still has not got product they paid for.  How can companies get away with this it just is not right but how can you sue a company that has nothing to take.  
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Forums > Green Building Technologies > Insulating Concrete Forms (ICFs) > ICF in Florida - additional vapor barrier?



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