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ebrocious
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 07/23/2008 8:39 PM |
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My ICF contractor starter on my footers June 10, 2008. Today is July 23, 2008 and all I have done is the foundation with the bar joists and the metal deck set on top with about 20 blocks stacked for the first floor on a two-story house. My bill as of July 24, 2008 is approximately $19,500 for labor only. They still have to stack all of the first floor, set the bar joists and metal deck for the second floor and then stack the second floor, plus pour all three floors. Am I missing something, or does this seem slow to you other ICF contractors.
Just this week alone, in three days a total of 74 man hours have been logged on the first floor and an extact total of 26 blocks have been stacked. Does this sound right to anyone. They keep telling me that they have to check the walls to make sure that they are square for the first two walls or everything will be off. They claim the the walls shifted at the tops a little bit and they need to adjust the next row to get everything squared back up again.
Also in my basement, I have a wall that is bowed inward because they decided not to use the ARXX corners because it was only a two foot offset. I knew they should have used the corners and just cut them down. Now I will have to frame that wall to hide the bow in it because the plaster will look horrible.
Any advice on this matter is greatly appreciated.
Thanks. |
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Paul Stevens
Registered Users
Posts:95
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| 07/23/2008 9:32 PM |
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It would be hard to give you an idea on what it should cost without looking at a plan and doing a take off to get a price for you. Although from what you have said it sounds like you have a bunch of guys who have no idea of what they are doing.
Do yourself a HUGE favor and stop everything right now. It is your money, tell them that you are not happy with what is going on and get a second opinion. You said yourself that you thought they should have used the ARXX corners, you are right, they should have.
Where are you located?? Maybe someone on this site is close buy and would be happy to come out and have a look. If you are anywhere near Barrie, Ontario, I would be more than happy to come look, and also take you to some of my jobs to see how things should look.
Remember, it is your money don't spend anymore until you are satisfied.
How did they quote the job, is it hourly or per square foot???
Paul Stevens
I just re-read your post, what do you mean 'plus pour all three floors'? what floor system are you using and why isn't each floor being poured as they go.
Once again I urge you to stop and wait for a second opinion. How did you find your contractor?? If it was through your ARXX rep I would call him and tell him (or her) of your concerns, I would also find an independent to have a look for an unbiased opinion.
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MDiver
Registered Users
Posts:23
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| 07/23/2008 11:20 PM |
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I agree with Paul on this one. Also, I would have a hard time paying any of the crews that put ICF systems together for me prior to the actual pour. If they screw up with the pour and it costs you money to rectify the problem, then who pays (the answer is you, if they already have their money).
I agree with Paul, stop all work, recheck your pricing, and don't pay by the hour, you are opening your wallet and letting these guys take all they want. |
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wes
Registered Users
Posts:327
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| 07/24/2008 7:27 AM |
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Having been a contractor for a long time, when I first saw your thread title, my first thought was "oh crap, another big bad contractor story".
HOWEVER, it sounds more like a slimy/sleazeball contractor to me. 74 hours for 26 blocks (assuming standard size forms) would be about 70 hours too many. Your contractor either knows nothing about what he is doing or is taking you to the cleaners. Either way, STOP now.
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Wes Shelby
Design Systems Group
Murray KY
wandr@ainweb.net |
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James Eggert
Registered Users
Posts:984
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| 07/24/2008 8:29 AM |
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And you haven't even mentioned any window/door bucks!! It looks like they will take around a day, day and a half to build each one :-)
A T&M project should not be a training project, especially if you don't have someone checking their work.
And many times you can rasp the wall so a small bow disappears! |
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Take Care
Jim
Design/Build/Consulting
"Not So Big" Design Proponent |
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Paul Stevens
Registered Users
Posts:95
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| 07/25/2008 6:50 PM |
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ebrocious, just wondering how you are getting along with your build??
Paul Stevens |
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ebrocious
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 07/25/2008 7:14 PM |
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HI Paul,
Thanks for the inquire. I haven spoken with ARXX and they referred me to two other local distributors. The one distributor recommending calling my architect/engineer to come and look at the house to make sure that it is structural sound. He also recommended calling my attorney ASAP. He also said that I should shut the job down immediately.
The other distributor that I had quote this house is actually going to travel from an hour and a half away to take a look at the structure to give me his opinion. He recommended not shutting the job down until he looked at it to see how bad it actually is because he has been installing ICF for the past 15 years. I told him that I would pay him for his consulting time and he said that would be fine. I was surprised that he is coming to look at it after he didn't get the job. But he actually turned down the job at the time because he was to busy. He said he has had to come into a couple other jobs to rectify the situation after things went bad. I wish he would have been able to take the job in the first place because I really wanted his company to do this ICF project and I should have just waited for him.
I also found a couple other items since my original post. I was looking at the back wall of the first floor (4 blocks high) the first floor blocks stick out past the basement blocks almost three inches on one end and about two inches on the other end. I have a four foot bump out in the back of my house which is the kitchen. This is the specific area where the walls don't line up. I asked the guys about it today because there is a brickledge one row below this floor seperation and I asked how they were going to stack the bricks because they would hit the bottom of the protruded first floor wall. They said they weren't sure how they are going to fix it. They would worry about that later.
Well the week is over, they logged 120 man hours (4 guys on Monday and 3 guys Tues-Fri). They are 4 blocks high on 2/3 of the house and 3 blocks in the other 1/3 of the house. The windows and doors are cut out but no wood bucking has been put in place.
I am convinced that they have no idea what they are doing. Once I talk to the expert tomorrow, I think it is time to shut down this project and call my attorney.
I was hoping that my first ICF experience would have went a lot smoother than this project has gone so far. |
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:285
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| 07/25/2008 8:35 PM |
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Without being overly nosey, how does the contract read? Shoddy workmanship sounds like the problem the way you are describing it, but who is in charge of the project?
I'm not a T&M worker so I'm more interested in how the contract was worded as to responsibilty and work time vs production, etc. If there are quality issues since they are T&M do they tear it out and repair/replace at your expense since it's T&M? Again, just curious |
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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icfcontractor
Registered Users
Posts:227
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| 07/25/2008 11:23 PM |
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ebrocious,
I, like most contractors here, have hesitated to chime in. I think the reason is that most of us either have been involved or are familiar with situations that a customer brandies about wild accusations about a myriad of problems, when the reality is, or was, their own misunderstanding of building, codes, techniques, or whatever.
I recently have supplied a project that I had suggested about 3 different qualified ICF contractors and the customer chose a different contractor who had never installed ICF. Their reason for choosing that contractor was partially based on the fact that the customer has a similar sailboat as the father of the contractor he chose. Needless to say that relationship broke down. He now has a contractor that is doing a fine job and seems to have a good relationship with him.
Though it seems that what you describe is quite egregious, I would like to reserve judgment until I see some pictures, a layout, or have more information. It is your right and responsibility to manage your project in the best manner you know how and stopping a project so you can get some answers is a good idea. This allows both sides to take a step back and assess the concerns and develop a plan for the future.
Remember if you confront this problem with hostility you will most likely receive hostility in return. If you approach this with an open mind and conciliatory manner you will probably end this with a more positive outcome. But don’t be a doormat, educate yourself, get expert advice, and see if you can right this ship. Work to come up with a plan that will make both you and your contractor happy. Sadly going to court will just protract the issue and from my experience neither side is ever happy with a judge’s decision.
ICF Contractor
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 07/26/2008 7:34 PM |
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This scenario begs the question :
" if the installer has no experience.........
how was he able to get his hands on the block , in the first place ?"
There IS a responsibility the Distributor has obviously neglected in his pursuit of the order.
Or have the wheels fallen off in the Industry ?
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Chris Johnson
Registered Users
Posts:285
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| 07/26/2008 8:44 PM |
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Eric, I hate to say this, but the wheels disappeared a long time ago, first SIPS started drop shipping, then ICF followed all looking for the all mighty dollar. The best we can do here is advise and hope for the best. A lot of ICC reports have a stipulation that trained installers must do the job, but it stops there...no enforcement and this is what happens.
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Chris Johnson - Pro ICF
Napa, CA
Come for the wine, Stay for the ICF work |
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PanelCrafters
Registered Users
Posts:1280
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| 07/26/2008 9:44 PM |
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Posted By eric monkman on 07/26/2008 7:34 PM
how was he able to get his hands on the block , in the first place ?"
There IS a responsibility the Distributor has obviously neglected in his pursuit of the order.
Or have the wheels fallen off in the Industry ?
Sorry, that's just plain silly. Should Home Depot stop someone from buying 2x4's because they don't have a Contractors License? Or maybe they aren't a Union Carpenter? Silly.
The next thing that ya know is that someone will be demanding that gum only be sold to someone with real teeth. Silly.
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....jc
If you're not building with OSB SIPS(or ICF's), why are you building? |
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icfcontractor
Registered Users
Posts:227
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| 07/26/2008 10:19 PM |
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Eric,
If that is directed to me, that is a long circuitous story that would take too much time because I don't type fast. Needless to say I have had to spend an extrordinary amount of time on site.
ICF Contractor |
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 07/27/2008 2:32 AM |
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My comments are generic.
The point is that all ICF systems are Engineered to begin with, and it takes competant and experienced
trademen/women to provide proper installation and economy.
Luckily, I am in an area where the Distibutors take pride in their educational programs and
provide quality technical support.
And yes, I disagree that a gumby can walk in to HD and buy ICF product off the shelf :-(
I don't see how a professionally engineered system with complex installation procedures
compares with a 2x4.
ICF is a "Specialty" product, and should remain so.
Sorry :-) |
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SoCalScott
Registered Users
Posts:28
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| 07/27/2008 3:50 AM |
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As of now, ICFs are still a "specialty" or should be for now. If a contractor wants to get his feet wet, he should start with a simple foundation or basement for his first project. Straight walls with few corners. Anyone building a custom home and hires a contractor with no previous ICF experience is going to paying extra to compesate for the learning curve either in time or cash. Experience in key. Also, the dropshipping of product is opening up the industry to the porblems that it experienced 10-15 years ago when contractors thought they didn't need tech support because it was so simple they could figure it out on their own, and when the project went south, they blamed the product.
PanleCrafters - comparing 2x4s to ICF? Come on now. that is a silly comparison. ICFs are not yet a commodity. With all of the work that ICF companies have had to do over the last 10 years to fix their reputation (in certain areas) the distributor should make sure that even if the client goes with an inexperienced installer, he does all he can to work with the contractor on the project to make sure it is successful. Now, if the client purchases the product ver the phone from a company on the other side of the country to "save a buck", and hires an inexperienced crew, all bets are off. Give ICFs 5 years, when every county in the country has at least 3 or 4 experienced installers, then they will be a commodity. until then, local tech support is a must. No one says they shouldn' supply the product, they just need to have a presence to make sute things go a smooth as possible, given the circumstances.
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icfcontractor
Registered Users
Posts:227
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| 07/27/2008 8:21 AM |
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So Cal, Eric,
I agree with both of you. I personally only build a few select structures a year anymore. My days are eaten up by jobsite visits, training, deliveries, and office work. I yearn for the days you speak of So Cal, I might be able to take a vacation.
ICF Contractor |
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eric monkman
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 07/27/2008 10:38 AM |
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Speaking of "drop shipping"...there appears to be an advertizer on this board that
promotes a cheap unit price, based on the ability to supply directly to the end user.
That is fine by itself, but..how does this company provide technical assistance & installer certification ?
I say realistcally, it can't...because it's pricing is too low, to provide budgeting for adequate programs.
This will "dumb down" the Industry for sure.
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ebrocious
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 07/27/2008 12:20 PM |
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I am offically shutting this job down tomorrow based on the expert opinion of a Certified ARXX installer with 15 years of experience in the industry. He was embarrassed for the industry that my house looks like it does. He said if it was his house, he would tear it all day and start over with someone who really knows what they are doing and not pretending to know what they are doing. Now I am left with the situation that I am the general contractor and I sub-contracting this guy who has been in business for over 30 years and has done about a dozen ICF structures but this is his first ARXX project and is not certified in the ARXX product. I have about $30,000 in materials that I have invested into this project that would be lost. I am absolutely sick about this whole mess. I have a full set of pictures for anyone who would like to see them. They are larger than this forum will allow me to post plus I have about 30 of them. I did reduce the size of three of them to attach but I am not sure how they will turn out. If you would like to see more just email me at ebrocious@hotmail.com.
Thanks...... |
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lkazanov2
Registered Users
Posts:106
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| 07/27/2008 12:42 PM |
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I agree with your decision to shut down this project. Sometimes it is better to cut the current losses than to create new ones. I am also GC'ing my first ICF project and actually plan on doing most work my self. I have a very good "consultant" as well as factory reps that are willing to help. The "consultant" has a crew that will actually do the pour. I am in no hurry and am fortunate to have that luxury. I have chosen "TF" vertical ICF for various reasons.
I am familiar with ARXX and have seen several installs. This is certainly not a good way to start. I am not sure what agreement you have with the installer but from the pictures provided it appears substandard. ARXX is very user friendly and aside from the brickledge detail which can certainly complicate things, the install should have gone smoothly.
What footer size are you using? The latest PCA 100-2007 recommends about 36" wide for full ICF house (2 stories) on 2000psf soil.
Why is there a transition to the outside on the photo with the brickledge? I assume you using an 8-10" block for the basement and 6" for above grade?
It appears that the system has been poured from the concrete stains. Have you considered rasping and furring out the defects to "smooth out" the install? Certainly more than you intended but perhaps salvageable. If the engineer is OK with soundness of the project then this may be an option. What about rebar and reinforcement? Are you familiar with the schedule? Was it engineered? Is it verified to be in the concrete?
It certainly saddens me to see such an install.
I wish you the very best of luck with your home.
Leonard
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ebrocious
Registered Users
Posts:12
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| 07/27/2008 12:58 PM |
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Leonard,
To answer your question about the brickledge, we are using 6" block for the entire house. The overhang is because the house is so out of square they are trying to square it back up again and this is there method of doing so. If I let them pour it the way it is now, I would have 3" of concrete sitting on 2 1/2" of foam and a 1/2" of nothing. The ARXX expert said this is not safe and would not want to be around when they would try to pour this wall.
Thanks for your support.
Eric
I have attached more pictures for your viewing pleasure. |
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