bloke
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| 11/22/2008 11:53 AM |
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Hi everyone. I ran into this site a couple of days ago while looking for timber frame house plans. I've been reading this site a lot over the last couple of days trying to educate myself on ICF and other green options.
My wife and I are planning a build in the next 2-3 years in Chelsea Quebec (just outside of Ottawa). We've been dead-set on having a timberframe home with SIPs for the skin, but after doing some searching on these forums, I've realized this route may be a little overkill and very expensive compared to other options. Obviously we haven't really looked into pricing the project in detail yet!!
We have a piece of land, but other than that, we've only been gathering ideas and looking at possible floor plans. I haven't contacted any designers/architects or builders.
After reading this forum, I love the concept of using ICF as the foundation and walls - but I still love the look and feel of a timber frame.
My general wish list for our home would be the following: 2,000 sq. ft, classic bard style timber frame, geothermal heating/cooling, radiant flooring, extremely energy efficient enclosure...and all of this on a tight budget (I know, probably not possible).
Would the following work and still be affordable: ICF foundation and walls, timber frame roof, and SIPs on the roof? Or is this overkill in another direction? Also, could this work in a barn style open framing?
To be honest, I'm not even sure who the first person to contact would be to begin this type of build marrying different products/systems together. If anyone has any contacts, that would be appreciated.
PS - I'm sure this post comes off a little 'green' (in a newbie way!!), but you gotta start somewhere. I'm really glad I googled my way here - great forum.
Cheers,
Iain |
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ICFconstruction
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Posts:625
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| 11/22/2008 12:08 PM |
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"Would the following work and still be affordable: ICF foundation and walls, timber frame roof, and SIPs on the roof? Or is this overkill in another direction? Also, could this work in a barn style open framing? "
Of course only you know what would be affordable. But I like your idea, I have planned on a cabin, for my family, along those lines. It would be ideal. but I may end up with traditional trusses.
Absolutely build all your outside walls with ICFs. I don't believe in ICFs because I use them, I use them because ICFs are currently the best system of construction.
You may find the timber frame roof structure may not be cost effective, it is strictly cosmetic too. |
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Brad Kvanbek - ICFconstruction.net |
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bloke
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| 11/22/2008 12:16 PM |
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Good point on "affordable" being a personal term. Cost is very high on the list for us, but I'm willing to sacrifice size, complexity of roof lines, and other cosmetic details to get the structure. That being said, the timber frame exposed roof is a must at this point.
Do you have a ballpark idea for the difference in pricing between traditional trusses vs. timber frame? 20% more, 30%? Just looking for approx. differences. |
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Neil Fenstermaker
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| 11/22/2008 9:29 PM |
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My wife and I are also planning on building a hybrid ICF/Timberframe with SIP roof on the timberframe. I have turned over my floor plan to an architect to draw the blueprints. We are building approximately 3500 sq/ft tri-level house. The walls and foundation will be ICF construction. The greatroom will be timberframe with SIP roof. I hope to begin construction spring 2009.
This is a compromise from a complete timberframe home that we had been planning until I talked to a timberfram builder in Michigan and found out that the timberframe/SIP cover alone would cost $140,000. (that is before foundation, floors, doors windows, etc) I still wanted the timberframe look in part of the home so we are using it for the support structure in the greatroom. The rest of the home will be ICF wall construction with stickframe interior walls and roof. A friend of mine is completing a ICF construction home now and the cost is pretty reasonable in comparison to the Timberframe/SIP construction. |
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TLC-ICF
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Posts:88
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| 11/26/2008 11:27 PM |
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Timberframe/SIP is way over the top when it comes to cost. Then you still have to skin the walls with stick frame or sips. You can build an ICF house with generic timbers to look like Timberframe.
Then you can have the best of both worlds. |
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irnivek
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Posts:297
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| 11/26/2008 11:56 PM |
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www.trestlewood.com as an option, look at their salvaged material and barns/timberframe structures they have in inventory.
They will cut a timberframe structure in half; then for new construction just clad the interior and exterior with the century old beams; often can use the same roof system for actual roof structure with SIPS above. They have excellent service and options.
Now hows that for green.
Kevin |
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bloke
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Posts:5
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| 11/27/2008 10:52 AM |
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Thanks for the link - there are some pretty cool barns on there. I gotta wonder how economical it would be to ship a barn from Indiana to Ottawa!!
Nonetheless, this has given me an idea for possibly looking at something local - I'm sure a similar type of structure could be found within a couple of hours from my location - you're right though, this is a really green way to go, save money, and add way more character.
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irnivek
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Posts:297
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| 11/27/2008 9:36 PM |
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I recommend powerwashing the old beams evenly with wide spray pattern and then applying satin clear finish. Looks awesome with lots of character from the past.
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Polycore
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Posts:63
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| 12/02/2008 1:07 PM |
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There are two ways to do this. You can build a Timber frame house and use different types of insulation to achieve your energy efficiency. Below is a picture of exterior insulation sheeting being applied to a beautiful Timber frame house in B.C.
Other people have constructed an energy efficient structure and then finished by using Timer products to achieve the look they are looking for. This may be a more cost effective option for long-term energy savings and construction materials. I have also attached an example of this.
Ultimately you may have to find a balance between the timber frame look you want to achieve and the insulation properties you are looking for. Good luck with your dream home. |
Attachment: J249 Siler Roof 007.pdf
Attachment: 02-Picture 086.pdf
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Polycore Canada Inc.
www.polycorecanada.com
1-877-765-9267 |
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ShelterBuilder
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Posts:2
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| 06/20/2009 2:43 PM |
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I can't help but reply late to all this:
1) power wash yes, gently. But don't seal interior timbers, or even exterior if yo can design for effective protection from the elements. Oiling can be environmentally neutral but VOCs maybe an issue. In areas of potential staining/soiling, (kitchen, bath, etc) forethought of post and beam orientation and room usage can minimalize the chance of staining. Wood, timbers, in their natural state last far longer and cope much more dynamically with fluctuations in moisture and temperature. That's why the old barns are still there and standing and why modern stick building tends to have a life span less than that of the average human.
2) There are dozens of knowledgable traditional builders that can deliver cost effective timber frames in Ontario and Quebec. Open Google Earth and do a business search for Timber Framing in Ontario and the options are dizzying.
3) I can't think of anything more green than building into a project structural redundancy. Timber frames wrapped with SIPs and set atop reinforced concrete walls are structures that could with minimal maintance last hundreds of years.
4)ICF's are well marketed and attempt to standardize strong foundations and efficient insulation techniques. I've personally seen over a dozen instances of both proffessionally and homeowner installs of ICFs and I would not choose to use them for myself nor recommend them to clients. Traditonally formed and reinforced poured foundations, wrapped in foam and sealed by one with an understanding craftpersons approach will be more plumb, level, true and void free than any ICF. As with anything that claims (and I see that this forum is heavily supported by ICF manufactures) ease over traditional established methods i find that there is probably a draw back. I think that like SIPs in the 50's through 70's they are a good product idea that was taken to market way too prematurely. Profit over purpose?
Any who, best of building. If you need contact info for timber framers in your area just drop me a line I have several contacts directly in the Ottawa/Hull area, both deal, like I, with salvaged timber construction.
Cheers--
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"So I see a world, in the future, in which we understand that all life is related and that we treat that life with great humility and respect."
"... I couldn't believe it, because it sounded so hippy-dippy, but it's love. Love is the force that makes us fully human."
David Suzuki, Scientist as quoted from
The 11th Hour |
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dwak
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Posts:23
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| 06/24/2009 3:44 PM |
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Bloke,
Your idea is very sound. I've built very cost effective variations of what you're proposing in Ontario, Canada for years. I live in Central America now. Try ICF foundation and walls. Timber beamed ceiling on the main floor, covered with 2x6 T&G planking as your main ceiling/second floor flooring. Timber frame the roof, cover with 2x6 T&G again as your loft ceiling. Cover that with 6" of iso cyrinite insulation (continuous cover). Wood strapping over that/or plywood and your roofing.
Or an earth sheltered timberframe as above. Most energy efficient and cost effective. Built those too.
Geothermal/floor heat is very nice but not cheap unless you "open loop it". Need an excellent well and blind authorities.
dwak
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irnivek
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Basic Member
Posts:297
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| 06/28/2009 6:41 PM |
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We completed an ICF/Timberframe in Jackson Hole Wy this spring. Some pics are on our blog through www.icfinstall.com
The total labor and material price for ICF package came in at less than $180K. Not bad we think for a residence which will have a $6.3 million total price tag and where some of the aesthetic timbers for the roof were priced at $20k each!
Send me a PM if you are interested in some practical details for structural purlin pockets etc.
Kevin
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JakeG
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Posts:23
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| 06/30/2009 11:44 AM |
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| Contact Vipul Acharya from Durisol. He will put you in direct contact with a group that does Timberframe & Durisol, foundations and above grade. Also ask him to see other projects in Chelsea Quebec they have done.
ph: 905-521-0999x2264
Good luck!
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TLC-ICF
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Posts:88
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| 07/04/2009 9:35 PM |
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| I just had a home owner go with a superior wall system over an ICF basement, because of a 6000.00 dollar differance. Then spend 176,000.00 on 50 pic of 12" post and beam. Go figure |
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