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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 06/19/2001 2:51 PM |
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| There was a question in Ask the Pros regarding termites, and I believe the answer was a little biased towards strictly using polysteel below grade. While I believe Polysteel is a fine product, i think the answer should be extrapolated on to include other alternatives; there have been other ICF products that obviously have been approved, if not by SBCC, at least by individuals who are qualified to provide an approval that overrides the SBCC(Engineers). Mark Ross, where are you???? |
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/20/2001 2:01 AM |
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Rick,
This question has been asked many times, bugs, bug and more bugs, when using ICF products at or below grade applications.
Every single region in the USA has its own codes and regulations. Even some county code building enforcement officials have issues with Polystyrene at or below grade. The products to be "approved" are far and few between, in some parts of the US, codes have changed, but attitudes by code officials have not, and they still won't allow it without certain wall assembly details. No information on Canadian Codes, Mark Ross would know about the Canadian issues.
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jdcoombs
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/20/2001 10:25 AM |
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I don't believe Dave W. intended to sound biased toward Polysteel, however his knowledge is heavily weighted there. Polysteel itself is not approved by SBCCI; it is AFM that hold the ONLY approved method (PerformGuard) for installing foam below grade in SBCCI territories. Polysteel, and I think only one other manufacturer, (please correct me if there are more) have license to use that product. PerformGaurd is available to anyone that desires to use it by paying their fee. You can visit their web site at www.r-control.com for full info.
Neither the engineer nor any other agent (save the local building official) can "override" this type of code requirement; nor is it in anyone's best interest. I'm sure that other methods will be approved as time goes on; many things are being examined.
Jerry D. Coombs, PE
Director of Engineering
American Polysteel, LLC |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 06/20/2001 12:08 PM |
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Thanks very much for the clarification, Jerry. I commented knowing that other products have been used below grade, how they were approved? I need to find out from the actual contractors. Thanks Again.
Rick Stacey
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seflpolyst
Registered Users
Posts:147
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| 06/20/2001 5:17 PM |
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jerry...how do you think the code would treat a below-grade icf structure that had 1" or so of regular mortar stucco applied over the forms and down over the footing providing a hard barrier before even any waterproofing membrane is applied? one could argue that no foam is used below grade (as it is encased in mortar) any more than if a cmu or solid poured concrete basement is insulated with foam on the inside, or like a cmu wall that has cavity insulation applied?
peter |
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jdcoombs
Registered Users
Posts:57
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| 06/21/2001 9:47 AM |
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You could make that argument to the local building official and hope for the best, but don't spend too much time and money on the design before you ask.
JDCoombs |
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enermizermuskoka
Registered Users
Posts:272
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| 06/21/2001 10:18 AM |
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I wonder that this must be one of those issues
involving geographical locations. Up north it
is a no brainer with EPS below grade, the hard
sell is going to the roof with I.C.F.'s- but
people are starting to catch on. All walls that will be below grade are required to be
waterproofed by some means(peel&stick,sprayed
on,or something impervious to moisture)before
backfilling-it is a required inspection that
takes place when the proper drainedge is looked at. If the "little buggers" were to
chew into this-it seems to me their mouths
would be glued shut. It must be the old"up to the authority having jurisdiction"clause
that is causing the descrepancies? The 1"
parge statement should work -why not? It's
just that this has never been an issue in my
experience. Take-care all, C.Kerr
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 06/21/2001 10:45 AM |
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Dear Chris and all: I think there are many alternative methods that work, Peter's suggestion makes sense to me, as well as yours Chris. I don't know how a termite sould chew through a peel and stick membrane, but then again, I just don't have the experience with dealing with pest infiltration issues. I think it comes down to liability. The building officials simply wont deal with experimental procedures that on paper look like they will work. An officially approved method will cover the building officials a**ets, to put it in Chris' terms. Ithink once everyone eliminates wood construction completely, at least in the exterior building envelope, more methods will be approved because they won't need to be so strict. There wont be a food source for the termites so why attempt to infest??
I wonder what they do in Hawaii? Don't they have severe termite issues there also?
Back to you guys
Rick
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 06/21/2001 4:10 PM |
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There are alternative measures, we have found locally in Ohio, which may, or may not have approval. System Platon is a single sheet plastic barrier, which I dont know if the little beggers can get through or not, however, we are sealing to the system platon with the acrylic stuccos, and it appears to suffice the local codes. Am I wrong?, I really dont know, maybe the problems in the south are more severe than this. The waterproofing membranes may work, however, I wonder if they are soft enough for termites to penetrate quickly. Howe about foil backed vapour barriers as cover sheets over the waterproofing. The aluminium may work, but it could get damaged in the backfill process.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/21/2001 7:39 PM |
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Two years ago, a system using a stainless mesh product was touted in the forum pages on the web, and according to company officials, the "termi-mesh" I believe it is called, was being tested for market in Florida. The ad said it was being used in Hawaii, I have not seen the product in use, however I did speak to a Rep a year and a half ago about the product. At that time, the Rep indicated the US market was only a "test" for a time, and the product was not available for purchase, at least in Ohio.
The Spray on 100% Rubber membrane products, below grade, with a parging at grade level, has worked well in the clay soils of west central Ohio, and central Indiana (however the biggest concern in these parts of the US is carpenter ants) This is one type of wall assembly detail currently in use. The follow up on these types of installations completed in 1994 thru this year documented for "results" and for "documentation of failure rates"; So far, not one problem, except when flower beds and "pine bark nuggets" are installed directly against the "parging" material, and the homeowner does not install the proper drainage, or membrane to keep the moisture down. In this instance, the parging was showing signs of "aging", but no major failures seen yet. The platon system Mark Ross describes is used widely in Ohio and Indiana. It works well too. The failures that I have witnessed with any of these products are just below grade line, along the top tack strip. In all instances of the failures, they seem to always be an installation issue, not a product failure. These comments are only reference to practical in-use applications since 1994, not any specific code reference. I think Dave W. is right when he describes the Perform-Guard as the only "approved" product, at least that is what my research concluded. "The Orkin Man" in my neighborhood said to always install "termite" traps and on-going treatment when using ANY foam around the foundation of a structure, as a safe guard, however, he is bias, he's the ORKIN man, but said ORKIN does offer "free" inspections and advice in all of North America.
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 06/22/2001 7:21 AM |
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Dave:
You mentioned that Platon works well for termite resistance when installed properly. Is the issue the connection between the acrylic stucco and the sealing flange at the top of the membrane, and if so, your recomendations. I do not want any problems, as one of our local contractors is installing flower beds lining the two sides of the front entry, and will be using wood chips or bark up against the wallsystem.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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Dave Watson @ Polysteel
Registered Users
Posts:34
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| 06/23/2001 11:15 PM |
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Rick,
Go back and read my answer again to the original post on the other forum. I replied that PerForm Guard by AFM was the only code approved method for use of foam below grade in areas of heavy termite infestation under SBCCI. There is no other method currently approved that is why we made the investment to incorporate this process in our plant. Granted it sure sounds good in theory that a waterproofing system would sure keep them out but how many times have we seen wet basements from improperly installed waterproofing. As I said it all falls back to the proper installation of such a system and it seems that the code officials have not been willing to accept it as adequate protection.
As Jerry said anyone who wants to step up to the plate and pay for the technology and conversion of their facilities can to add this to their products too.
P.S.If you want to see some good pictures of termites in EPS go to Ian's ICF
Home web page!
Dave Watson
Americam Polysteel |
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/24/2001 10:42 PM |
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Mark,
The Waterproofing membrane needs to be fastened securely to the wall assembly using approved fasteners and to make sure the tack strip is sealed properly. The bed liners with proper drainage is key here. What I have seen is a dampness at the wall line, and this seems to invite all types of failures. The proper drain tile installed is key too. Making sure the homeowner understands that any material to hold moisture will invite poblem area's, if it is not lined, drained and inspected anually...
Edited by - icfdesign on 06/25/2001 14:45:12 |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 06/25/2001 11:13 AM |
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Dave,
"Stepping to the plate" by icf manufacturers will soon be a moot point. Bead manufacturers, who supply the bead for all types of insulation, will soon be providing bead that will meet the requirements for below grade insulation in termite infested areas. This will eliminate the steps necessary to insure a safe working enviroment for the people who work in our manufacturing facilities where the borate would need to be added. Kudos to AFM & Polysteel for being ahead of the game.
Cheers
Rick Stacey |
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Dave Watson @ Polysteel
Registered Users
Posts:34
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| 06/25/2001 5:27 PM |
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Rick, It would be interesting to know what bead manufacturers feel this technology is coming soon. The last conversation we had with BASF was that it did not look promising. What other bead manufacturers do you know of that are working on this technology and what time frame do they feel thay can have product available and how long will it take for testing to be completed to be code compliant?
As for the safety of the workers, that has not been an issue. PerForm Guard is a borate solution. Borates have been used in laundry products, personal care products, plant fertilizer etc. and have been used to control various kinds of insects in homes for many years.
Dave Watson
Sales Manager |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 06/25/2001 5:32 PM |
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Rick:
Uh, any chance it will be available in the next week or two????
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 06/26/2001 9:20 AM |
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Mark,
If only......
Dave-wish I could give you more details too, but I know for a fact its not as easy as you state. But, again, a moot point. You are doing something that works for you, and your customers are happy. That all that counts.
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 07/08/2001 1:22 PM |
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Dave:
One of our local guys is using a cellulose self dispensing system every 10' around his home, which is supposed to kill termites and carpenter ants off. Does this work very well, I have reviewed the "Bug B Gone" system he intends to use, however my knowledge is very limied here.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 08/03/2001 3:57 PM |
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| Has anyone had any experience with the Grailcoat system? |
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OKBlocker
Registered Users
Posts:635
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| 08/04/2001 10:19 AM |
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Rick,
We have used Grail Coat on a very limited basis. I found the product very easy to work with.
If you were considering a synthetic stucco for help in combating the termite issue, we have a product that the manufacturer will provide "Optional Termite Preventive Additives"........email me for details if you would like more info. |
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