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mswilke
Registered Users
Posts:13
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| 06/27/2001 10:27 AM |
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I've been reading lots of information about the pros and cons
of various types of insulation (e.g., fiberglass, cellulose, eps
foam, etc.). I was leaning towards eps foam in icf construction,
but now am unsure after reading the Materials Safety Data Sheet on
a DOW brand of foam insulation from
http://www.globalms.com/architecture/att13.htm
In particular, I noted this quote
"DURING CERTAIN FABRICATION OPERATIONS SUCH AS CUTTING
AND GRINDING, BLOWING AGENTS CONTAINED IN THE FOAM AND
DUST MAY BE RELEASED. ACCUMULATION OF BLOWING AGENTS
OR DUST IN AIR COULD PRESENT FLAMMABILITY AND EXPLOSION CONCERNS. PROVIDE ADEQUATE VENTILATION, AND
APPROPRIATE DUST HANDLING SYSTEMS WHERE NEEDED.
THIS PRODUCT SHOULD NOT BE SHIPPED, STORED OR USED IN
VIRTUALLY AIRTIGHT SPACES TO PREVENT THE BUILD-UP OF
COMBUSTIBLE VAPORS."
This seems to suggest that not only are there issues when installing
electrical, etc., but that there may be some long-term risks related to
storage of eps foam (especially in ICF homes). Other issues also are mentioned in the data sheet related to post-
manufacturing use of these foams, but it is not clear how problematic they are. I've also seen some polystyrene warnings
regarding use in food and beverage containers regarding effects of
styrene contamination. I've read what most
ICF companies say, but they tend to be a bit vague. Has any
independent research been done about the long-term health risks
of this type of insulation inside a home?
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 06/27/2001 10:40 AM |
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mswilke:
I cannot say boo about the XPS products you are referring to. However, ICF's manufactured with Expanded Polystyrene, (or EPS) use the same foam bead and processing methods used in foam coffee cups and plates, which is approved by the FDA. There are a few ICF's which may not classify due to certain additives such as coloring (although these may even be approved), however I would recommend speaking to the manufacturers if this is a concern
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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mswilke
Registered Users
Posts:13
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| 06/27/2001 5:47 PM |
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Mark,
Thanks for the reply. I received an email from another fellow saying that I should contact the manufacturer. So...I contacted Arxx and received the MSDS for the styropor and the plastic webbing. Basically, the MSDS was largely incomplete with "no data" for the majority of the categories. "Hazardous Ingredients" was blank because it "is not a WHMIS controlled product". It mentions that there is the "odour of pentane" (which has been shown to be carcinogenic) and "possible ignition due to static electricity". It goes on to say "Inhalation of vapors or mist may cause dizziness, nausea, headache." It also says that "there are no known chronic effects associated with this material", but then gives "no data" for carcinogenicity, exposure limits, mutagenicity, etc. It finishes by saying that it should be stored in a dry, well ventilated location at temperatures below 27 C (around 80 F).
Maybe I'm asking the wrong crowd here as I realize that health risks can be really taboo, but can folks point me to independent scientific data that shows the long-term effects of living in a relatively tight home with this type of insulation? Studies have shown that styrene is ingested in small quantities when we drink or eat off of FDA-approved Styrofoam materials (do a web search on Polystyrene), but this may not be the same as living in a home with this material for 30+ years. I've yet to see any web information from any ICF manufacturer that addresses health and safety beyond some simply saying that it doesn't off-gas and then discussing its strength, etc.
Don't get me wrong...I love the concept of ICF. However, I (and I'm sure other home owners) don't want to construct something potentially harmful. If these materials have been rigorously tested, that would be great and I'd love to read the details. From what I've seen of the Arxx MSDS, however, the data do not allow me to decide if it is safe or not (the Arxx person who sent me the data has forwarded my questions to technical support). I'm mentioning Arxx here simply because I have a nearby installer...however, I'd welcome anything scientifically supported from any ICF company (or even comments affirming that there hasn't been rigorous testing).
Thanks,
Scott |
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seflpolyst
Registered Users
Posts:147
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| 06/27/2001 6:09 PM |
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things to consider when being concerned with icf health risks:
1. carpets and their off-gassing
2. cabinets, particle board, and off-gassing
3. plywood...ditto
4. any pressure treated lumber...ditto
5. cars parked in garage?
6. solvents used in most paint
7. adhesives for surfaces
8. indoor cooking
9. laundry and drying operations
that makes icf's covered with drywall pretty safe to me....
nothing scientific, just some basic thoughts...
Edited by - seflpolyst on 06/27/2001 18:12:13 |
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mswilke
Registered Users
Posts:13
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| 06/27/2001 6:26 PM |
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| I definitely agree that there are other contibuting factors to "pollution" and the associated health risks in our homes. |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 06/27/2001 11:46 PM |
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Scott:
Jerry Harber sent me this email, which is very informative, although not listed as an ICF pro, Jerry posts regularily, and has provided a vast amount of insight into ICF's and related systems. Thank you for your input Jerry, I for one appreaciate it.
Jerry Harber Wrote:
"Mark,
Since I'm not a "Pro", I would like to offer my reply to Scott. Peter
brings up valid facts regarding other noxious substances present in the
home, but it doesn't quite answer Scott's concern. Leaving this post "hang"
does not really offer a favorable view to ICF's.
I believe Scott is concerned about the potential hazards of EPS to the
home's occupants. These hazards could come from either breathing,
ingestion, or absorption through the skin. Based on the material and its
use, I would rule out ingestion and absorption through the skin as real
concerns. This still leaves the issue of inhaling hazardous substances.
Another potential concern for Scott may be the future issues regarding ICF
built homes and the resulting impact on resale value.
I learned in my HVAC training that indoor air quality originates with
filtration and dilution. This means that indoor air must be filtered and/or
fresh air introduced into a building to remove/dilute bad things from the
air. To me, Scott's concern should not be dismissed, rather it offers an
opportunity as another reason for using a HRV/ERV in an ICF home. This
introduces the fresh air and removes an equal amount of "stale" air for
dilution of indoor pollution. For hypersensitive people, the addition of an
electronic air filter with carbon filter would present the ultimate in
indoor air quality. This system would not only address EPS issues, but it
would also cover all of the item's listed in Peter's reply. The only
down-side to this solution is the need to properly operate and maintain the
system.
It would be great to find real MSDS information. My reply only offers
prescriptive advice if the MSDS should offer any concern with indoor air
quality. I only wish I had a crystal ball regarding future resale values of
ICF built homes. Currently, I am convinced that they will increase
dramatically due the the energy savings they offer. Just imagine if
California could cut it's A/C bill by at least 25% this summer. It would go
a long way towards taking care of their immediate problem.
Jerry Harber"
Thanks again Jerry, from one pro to another.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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mswilke
Registered Users
Posts:13
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| 06/28/2001 12:29 PM |
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All,
I really appreciate Jerry's comments regarding HRV/ERV and Rick's comments in his new thread regarding drywall as a relatively effective barrier. Does anyone know how long there is off-gassing after the EPS material has been installed? Ideas about what is being off-gassed? Will there be greater levels in the attic because the drywall serves as a barrier for the interior?
I've being doing more web research using a search on "air quality" and "polystyrene insulation". There were several sites that had little hard data, but "field experience" regarding different types of insulation that said the following:
1) air-krete was probably the safest insulation,
2) expanded polystyrene (EPS) was better than extruded polystyrene because of chemicals used in the manufacturing process,
3) Miraflex was the best fiberglass insulation because it doesn't need glues to hold fibers together, no coloring, etc.
4) proper ventilation is the key to a healthy house (basically echoing Jerry's comments)
5) the only caution with EPS products were for "chemically sensitive" people, but there wasn't much information regarding doses, longevity of off-gassing, etc.
6) basically said that all forms of insulation were fine, if the house is ventilated properly
We're getting our preliminary plans today (drawn with ICF walls, but we're still considering 2x6 construction), but we're still interested in hard data if anyone has any.
-Scott |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 06/28/2001 1:43 PM |
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Pantene is the gas which will be released during the curing of the EPS product, for any raw bead, no additives, product. This pantene generally takes about 4-6 weeks to fully release from the bead. For hard facts, call BASF, and talk to Tom Greeley. He can direct you to the studies and facts.
Mark Ross
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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mswilke
Registered Users
Posts:13
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| 07/09/2001 10:53 AM |
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I received an email from Tom Greeley. Below is an exerpt from it:
"It appears that most of the information you have been given, especially that
pertaining to the blowing agent, pentane, refers to the EPS raw material
before it is expanded into foam. Most all of the pentane, a hydrocarbon, is
released during and shortly after processing and in many plants it is
required to be controlled based on requirements of the Federal Clean Air
Act.
A good rule to practice by any good contractor when constructing any "tight"
home no matter the technology used is to install mechanical air handling
equipment to bring fresh air into the house and to remove "stale" air and
humidity created by the occupants. Many sophisticated systems have been
developed. The off gassing of EPS foam is limited to very small quantities
of pentane; typically less than 1% may remains following manufacture,
shipping and installation if an ICF. EPS insulation is almost identical to
that of the EPS white foam coffee cup except for the flame modification
agents added to the insulation to meet the surface burning requirements of
the building code."
On a related note...
I checked out some EPS materials with the borate in them first hand. I found that fresh cuts had a fairly strong odor to them. I do not know how long these EPS materials had been made.
-Scott |
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