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jdintexas
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 06/29/2001 7:27 PM |
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| From reading the other replies are you guys telling me that by building an ICF Home that i will be building my Coffin..from the Offgassing?!?!?!?!? |
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enermizermuskoka
Registered Users
Posts:272
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| 06/29/2001 8:19 PM |
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Dear Jeanne,definately NOT!. I feel this issue is nothing but nonsence & poppycock.
There is certainly a concern about the pentene offgas, but I sense the presence of
fear mongering emerging. If the eps molder
can allow for the fresh product to be"inventoried" for a period of time, allowing it to "cure" there shouldn't be any
more emmissions. However, I would agree that
the problem can exist if, a supply/demand issue developes-and the maker is shipping out
the stuff as fast as they can produce it.
I'm not trying to intrude, but I'm sorry-
This industry has come too far in advancement
& acceptance for this type of hype to kill it
now. Just 1 Guy's opinion though. Take-care.
Sincerely, C.Kerr
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Ian ICF Builders
Registered Users
Posts:612
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| 06/29/2001 8:44 PM |
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| Hey Jeanne: This topic was discussed once before, but in the "old" forum, I don't know if you can access it, but I believe there is a great deal of info on the topic at the EPS Molders association website, look for it in the directory. Ian |
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jharber
Registered Users
Posts:7
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| 06/29/2001 10:45 PM |
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Not a coffin, but a comfortable home. Scott's real concern came from not having material safety data sheets on this stuff. My guess is none exist for wood either.
I look at the question as another important reason for the energy recovery ventilator/heat recovery ventilator (ERV/HRV). I believe the other areas pointed out by Peter represent a far greater hazard to health than the EPS.
While many (me included) people enjoy the smell of a new carpet, it does affect hypersensitive people in an adverse way. Although I do not understand it, I do recognize the problem.
That's the funny thing about ICF construction. The low air infiltration rates, a properly operated ERV/HRV, and a properly functioning filtration system provides a superior environment for everyone. All air introduced into the home is filtered. It is much better to have a controlled environment such as this as opposed to unfiltered air infiltrating through the structure (I visualize mold and mildew in the walls and insulation when I say this).
Sorry if I sound like a stereotypical used car salesman for ERV/HRV's. I know properly used, they offer great health benefits -especially in ICF homes.
Jerry Harber
http://www.ICFStuff.com
Edited by - jharber on 06/29/2001 22:47:05 |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 06/30/2001 6:49 PM |
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Jerry, J.D., Chris, etc...
We carry a line of air handlers, HRV's ERV's and air scrubbing units, which we ship in Kit form to home owners. These are easy and Cheap guys and gals. AND THEY WORK. The sensors detect not only humidity, but a variety of other chemicals, including smoke, formaldehyde, pollen, etc. They work and work well. Simply put, when the contaminat levels reach a pre-set safety level, the units kick on to evacuate the poor quality air, and replace it with filtered, clean, fresh, exterior air. You cannot go wrong for a thousand or so dollars, which includes it all, including the ducting, covers, and balancing kits. This should not be an issue, ICF homes put owners in the perfect position to control the quality of the indoor enviornment to an extreame. If this is a concern, I will gladly discuss any of this with anyone, its easy, simple, effective and cost effective.
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 06/30/2001 10:40 PM |
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When the quality of indoor air becomes an issue, note this: a recent proposal by State Farm Insurance Company to the State Insurance Board of Texas, to discontinue mold & mildue in their policy coverages, and exclude this type of peril in their policies! The indoor air issue is VERY REAL and the systems Mark Ross describes works well, I have been in an ICF home using this cost effective method, and it does work well. If anyone is concerned about off-gas from the plastic beads being steamed together, I would ask more questions about carpet than ICF wall assemblies. Sure, maybe some textbook can describe a fault, however these issues have been dealt with, and addressed...Ask your carpet supplier these same questions, and you'll get a blank stare...like uh? what are you talking about..
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365
Registered Users
Posts:36
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| 07/01/2001 10:34 PM |
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| First I would like to say there are MSDS sheets for EPS. These are nothing new and have been around for years. Second we have actually had a doctor test one of our ICF homes through meters and found the carpet needed to be removed from the house before his client could move into the new home. The ICF was not a problem. Third, by the time an average house is completed, off gassing is not a problem. I would consern myself with the plywood, carpet and some of the new pressed 2x4s in the internal walls before I even though about an off gasssing problem from ICF's. As a company we have looked into this and other issues like exposer of the forms to the weather elements for extended periods of time and what insects try to invade the formwork. I'm sure ICF's have their drawbacks but as a company, we hav'nt found any major ones yet. |
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 07/01/2001 11:58 PM |
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This comment is about ICF form units that were used on a job after setting in a warehouse for five years. The client experienced no problems that would be related to "older" form units. The ICf's were stored indoors and not outside though. The material seemed to be "dried out" and when the rasp was used to fit the units into place, they were a little harder to rasp. It could be said that they were dried out well. I wanted to comment because some units have been delivered days after they were made, and were still "damp" during the installation process. I am not reccomending that using "older" form units is okay, just that in this case, they worked fine, and seemed to be very dry. Any other comments about stored products??
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 07/02/2001 11:50 AM |
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| "dried" forms tend to have slightly smaller dimensions than newer product. This is due to the moisture in new product. It only becomes an issue if you mix, OLD product, with fresh product. The product will still perform and fit to the newer stuff, but you may find small gaps between the forms. Get the foam gun out. ITs always a godd idea for people who carry stock to rotate the older stuff. |
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panelwright
Registered Users
Posts:19
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| 07/08/2001 12:55 PM |
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If I may,
I think that you do your industry a disservice by even suggesting that EPS is prone to offgassing. The term "offgassing" implies a loss of blowing agent that results in a decrease of the materials R-Value. This is an industry term and one that has nothing to do with EPS. EPS does not offgas! Urethane and polyisocyanurate foam do offgas. This is why their is confusion created by the variety of R-values touted for these products. The foams that do offgas have very high values right out of the mold. However, offgasing will reduce these numbers to a stable value which is the true R-value. Marketing and sales pitches are mostly responsible for inflated numbers and unrealistic claims of R-Value.
The concern for EPS contributing to an unhealthy environment in an occupied structure is so negligable that it is virtually undetectable. The "aging" process of EPS is such that various percentages of pentane gas (the blowing agent) are lost througout the manufacturing process.
Virgin bead has 3%-5% pentane by weight.
The multi-step process of manufacturing EPS assures that approximatly 75-85% of the gas is dissapated. The remaining amount will be lost due to the aging process (either forced or naturally) with the exception of a small amount locked into the closed cell structure. This trace amount will be locked into the foams cells forever. The aging process I've always favored is forced aging in hot-boxes or kilns. The heated environment will shorten the time of final pentane dissapation from 6 weeks to 1 week. In addition, forced aging will remove internal stresses from foam, dry the material of residual condensate left from the molding process, as well as create a more dimensionally stable material. The last benefit really only applies to block molded EPS as opposed to a shape molded part.
I feel confident in discussing this issue as I have 10+ years experience as a general manager of an EPS plant. That experience includes the use, testing, and implementation of borates in the production of perform guard foam as well as manufacturing flat board for four different types of ICF systems.
Sorry for rambling on, but it appears that this information is needed, and I believe it is crucial that everyone understand the facts regarding EPS. It is a significant part of your business isn't it??
Thanks for the platform,
Al
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jdintexas
Registered Users
Posts:26
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| 07/08/2001 5:20 PM |
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 Al, Ian and all that have contributed valuable information and help to set my mind and i am so sure many others of us that plan on building the BEST home available..ICF!! I have learned and continue learning and in this shall educate the others that are watching my endeavors for their next dreamhome...through the proper A.C and airexchanger i WILL have a healthy living environment...thanks..Jeanne  |
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Chris DeLucchi
Registered Users
Posts:170
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| 07/09/2001 10:27 AM |
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quote:
That experience includes the use, testing, and implementation of borates in the production of perform guard foam as well as manufacturing flat board for four different types of ICF systems.
panelwright, Al
Could you tell us more about adding borates to EPS? I have heard comments like it reduces EPS's strength, is a hazard for operators in production, and requires a lot of setup and tooling modifications. It looks like Borates might be the best solution for long term Termite control and there seems to be a lot of conflicting information floating around.
Chris |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 07/09/2001 12:54 PM |
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Thanks for the input AL,very valuable and concise.
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 07/09/2001 7:50 PM |
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Al,
Again, thanks for your input on the subject. I can remember the strong odor from the BM products delivered the next day after molding back in the mid-90's. Your explaination is the same that Ajax (molder in Canada)firm provided at that time. Can you explain why testicles in lab rats are smaller because of borates added to ICF's.
Edited by - icfdesign on 07/10/2001 17:49:02 |
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panelwright
Registered Users
Posts:19
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| 07/10/2001 9:34 AM |
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On with the lesson plan.
Perform guard is made by adding borate to the foam during the pre-expansion phase. The additive comes in 50lb sacks and closely resembles flour. The material ia actually a mined mineral of sorts deposited by ground-up crustacea of a billion years ago. The product is actually a mechanical irratant to small bugs digestive systems.(sort of like chewing up glass and swallowing)The chemical name is disodium octoborate tetrahydrate. Commonly known as diatamatious earth (used in pool filter systems) Other uses for borates include baby clothes fabric, commercial drapery fabrics, and fiberglass insulation. All industries use the additive as a means oflowering the flammability of the end product. However, in the case of fiberglass insulation , I'm told it's technically boron (a close relative to borates)used to improve flame spread and smoke developement numbers in the ASTM testing. In addition, borates are used as a mold and fungus preventative. This includes some sheathing and even the wash used to clean contact lenses. Given that laundry list of uses, I'll let you determine how safe the product is.
The MSDS indicates the usual dangers and precautions. Big surprise. MSDS's would have you thinking white-out is a toxic nightmare waiting to happen. The only real concern from my employees was the note that indicated a shrinkage of testicles in labrotory rats that were force-fed the powder. Imagine the questions I had to answer when they read that.
The powder is mixed with warm water to ensure complete suspension in the slurry that is then pumped into the pre-expander along with the raw EPS beads. The amount of material introduced is a controlled proportion and yields a treated product with around 2500 PPM of infused borates.
The setup costs are insignificant and the whole process can be mastered by anyone who can use a scale, a mixing paddle, and flip on a pump switch. The hard part comes when the lab reports a high or low amont of borates in your random sample. Yes, too much is as bad as too little. Not enough, and the treatment loses effectiveness against the bugs. (Carpenter Ants & Termites ONLY) Too much and the fusion strength of the EPS is compromised.
In conclusion, I would like to suggest that, while borate infused EPS is really neat and all, it should NOT be considered the sole means of defense against the bugs. Many examples of projects have shown that the bugs are capable of overcoming borates as a solo defense.
That's enough for now. I'm off to the beach for vacation to practice a littl shrinkage of my own.
Regards,
Al
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enermizermuskoka
Registered Users
Posts:272
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| 07/10/2001 4:57 PM |
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Well done Al, indeed!!! Bravo!! Happy Camping
Sir. That'ss the way to do it(I'm envious).
Take-care,Sincerely. C.Kerr
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icfdesign
Registered Users
Posts:195
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| 07/10/2001 5:54 PM |
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Enermizermoskoka,
(The setup costs are insignificant and the whole process can be mastered by anyone who can use a scale, a mixing paddle, and flip on a pump switch.) Maybe with your experience in your Hyrdroponic lab, you'd be a shoo in for this type of job....You could add this to your impressive resume....
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enermizermuskoka
Registered Users
Posts:272
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| 07/11/2001 2:38 PM |
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Sure Pal?!? Whatever you say?... You certainly are a man ahead of my time, but it's the way you see things that simply
be-dazzle's me. I have to wonder- what color
is the sky?In the world you live in.
- But I must say that you sure are good for
a laugh, if for nothing else. You're amazing. |
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Rick
Registered Users
Posts:157
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| 07/12/2001 10:26 AM |
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| Al, that was incredible. I find your opinion that borate treated foam alone may not be enough to stymie termite infiltration extremely interesting. It has been my opinion that more precautions need to take place, from the soil treatments, additional continous barriers from above grade to below on the exterior building envelope, to keeping shrubs etc away from the building. Very interesting stuff. And the education continues....thanks AL!!!!! |
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markross
Registered Users
Posts:1035
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| 08/04/2001 4:02 PM |
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Rick:
You should speak to Tim in OK, he has a Bug-B-Gone system which sounds like it is designed to eliminate the need for termite protection. I know little about the logistics, but I am learning. Go to www.tristardevelopment.com (I think).
Later
Mark Ross
"Le Canuck" |
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