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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 11/27/2007 10:15 PM |
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That was always my opinion also but further research has shown us that this is what we see so far with Helix.
It can easily replace all horizontal and verticals except lintels in some cases. The cost on residential washes with the rebar cost but an obvious savings in labor cost. In commercial there is a substantial savings in rebar cost and even more substantial savings in labor. So far our engineers and architects that have researched this product have as much enthusiasm as we do and we are trying to speck it in a few upcoming projects.
As far as the Build Block distributors go I know other ICF professionals have been using this product and no individual will have exclusive rights. Your local Reddi-mix guy could get this product but will have to buy in Pallet quantities plus shipping.
Dave
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/28/2007 10:54 AM |
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I think it will ultimately come out that Helix can not be used in areas which must build to Seismic D1 or D2.
This is great stuff for flatwork, but the kinds of buildings we build I don't think it's suited, at least in seismic areas. I've gathered from studies that it can not be used in commercial concrete cast-frame structures particularly with cast curtainwalls because, although it does make the structure more ductile, in a 3D structure there is no way for it to flex because of corners, interfloor decking, and other complex support. Walls can bow and flex which is very good, but racking will tear it apart at the seams and corners. So the only solution I can see is to build rigid and strong as per HUD's Prescriptive Method v2.
This is what I've gathered in little pieces from multiple sources. Trust me, I wish metal fiber were possible, but I can't take the legal chance until HUD or IBC says OK. |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 11/28/2007 8:38 PM |
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I see your point with the legal, but there engineer takes care of that.
Dave |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/29/2007 8:16 PM |
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("Jointly and severally liable")
Feel like talking about how Helix answers the racking and legal issues? |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 11/29/2007 8:29 PM |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:105
11/28/2007 10:54 AM Quote Reply Alert
I think it will ultimately come out that Helix can not be used in areas which must build to Seismic D1 or D2.
This is great stuff for flatwork, but the kinds of buildings we build, I don't think are suited, at least in seismic areas. I've gathered from studies that it can not be used in commercial concrete cast-frame structures particularly with cast curtainwalls because, although it does make the structure more ductile, in a 3D structure there is no way for it to flex because of corners, interfloor decking, and other complex support. Walls can bow and flex which is very good, but racking will tear it apart at the seams and corners. So the only solution I can see is to build rigid and strong as per HUD's Prescriptive Method v2.
This is what I've gathered in little pieces from multiple sources. Trust me, I wish metal fiber were possible, but I can't take the legal chance until HUD or IBC says OK.
Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:17:26 PM
Quantum: Respectively I'm surprised as to this post and also your last post about "whats your mix" Your claiming not to understand why other ICF professionals will not share there hard work with others that are not in there area, but you surely understand that my competition will be reading my post! But I'll share it anyways.
Also you made the claim that other people's behaviors are reflexive, as yours is above. I just spent 4 hours today with Helix and can assure you that it was designed for seismic areas. Also to claim Presciptive is the only way to go when Helix's own charts have # per yd to equate to Perscriptive design with an average of 10-20% better results is a little to much speculative from a non engineer.
Not only will they convert a specific project to Helix poundage, but they will supply the documentation on a job specific bases with engineering that meets ACI 318-05 which is covered in residential construction by the IRC and any manufactures ICCES report that if designed by ACI 318 prints and drawings do not need to bear the stamp of an engineer.
No ones perfect, I have read post here and responded my self to quickly with out understanding the post clearly but I can assure you, Helix is all what they say and will be one of the most significant advances in the ICF industry that we may see.
And no I'm not selling the product "yet" but only trying to understand its place in our industry and I'll tell you it will be awesome. Imagine the cost of rebar placement in an ICF structure that it will replace, make us more competitive, productive, and a better all around choice to all our competing products.
As to my own engineers that have looked at this they are not as excited as me, but have only sen the generic info on there site and have not seen the engineering behind this product yet. Surly there will be a few bridges or battlefields to cross, but I believe strongly that you will see my point soon.
Thanks Always Dave |
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/29/2007 9:10 PM |
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Well, maybe you're under different competitive pressures than I. I apologize if I've offended you. I just push for free exchange and walk the walk, but get impatient sometimes with those who don't. It means I won't share, if they won't. That's the rule.
I am indeed not an engineer. This is why I have to rely on the major authorities for cover, and I am just trying to caution you a bit. I understand how nice metal fiber would be, but I do not understand how racking would not destroy the structure in a significant earthquake, with all the cross-bracing. This was what I was meaning to ask above.
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Al J
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 11/29/2007 10:36 PM |
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I'm with Helix. Our technology was originally designed specifically to study seismic and blast resistance in concrete structures.
The
toothpick-sized wire is shaped into a triangular
geometry and twisted. When added to a mix it becomes an integral part
of the matrix and is randomly dispersed, providing reinforcement in
all directions. Since each individual fiber acts like a tiny screw
locked into the concrete that must actually untwist before cracks can
form, the concrete becomes more ductile. The failure mechanism is changed from fritional pullout to untorsioning each fiber. This is only technology
which raises the modulus of rupture of concrete. A dosage as low as 10lbs/yard increases precrack strength 22%.
If you have a building project in a seismically active area and are interested in exploring this technology it wouldn't cost you a dime to submit your plans and have us prepare an engineering analysis for you. We are happy to step through it with your engineer. Then you can decide what is possible and what is not on your project with your engineer. You have nothing to lose.
Hope to hear from you.
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Quantum
Registered Users
Posts:262
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| 11/30/2007 8:32 AM |
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I've read every word on your website Al and understand the system. But my questions are WRT complex structures. Please read my posts above.
walltech, I believe you are a fine technician and a good man, so as a show of good faith I'm forwarding to you offline, two major advances in our craft which I hope will help you. As you have competitive concerns I can't put them up here, as some people just take and take, which very much annoys those of us who are aware.
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AStanton
Registered Users
Posts:1
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| 12/01/2007 6:58 PM |
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| Greenbuilder, I am a concrete contractor just entering the ICF game. I am a certified contractor with American Polysteel. What factors made you convert to Helix over Novomesh700? I am about to start a house in New Orleans and would like to push the envelope by using one of the two products. My primary market is affordable housing ,so anyway I can save money while providing a "green" energy friendly product is my mission. And the gulf coast is ripe for these innovations if they are scientifically and mathamatically sound. Please advice on how you compared the products. |
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walltech
Registered Users
Posts:469
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| 12/01/2007 7:11 PM |
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Quantum, I will not see any personal Em's till Monday! But I know this, that Build Block and Nudura are pouring projects with this fiber already. I personally have a project that was converted on Friday and will see the results soon. And yes it has replaced all verts and horizontals.
Dave |
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ECO-HAMMER
Registered Users
Posts:24
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| 12/06/2007 11:43 PM |
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When you use Helix in you mix what do the building inspector look at before the pour? Who vouches for its placement in the mix? Do you keep cores for proof?
Thanks
Joey |
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Talisker2
Registered Users
Posts:15
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| 12/07/2007 10:57 AM |
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Referencing this link http://ois.nist.gov/nistpubs/technipubs/dresults.cfm I do not see any testing of the Helix embedded concrete. Did I miss something? I am sure that the engineering staff for my local building department will want to see some definitive testing before they will sign off. I am not sure since I have not seen the map for the location I am planning to build but it appears from the other construction I see in the general area where we plan to build is Zone 3-4.
Thanks
Jim Flood
Seismic Hazards
In 1979 the Municipality commissioned a study of geotechnical hazards in Anchorage. The study defined five seismic hazard zones:
Zone 1 (lowest ground failure susceptibility)
Zone 2 (moderately low ground failure susceptibility)
Zone 3 (moderate ground failure susceptibility)
Zone 4 (high ground failure susceptibility)
Zone 5 (very high ground failure susceptibility)
Structures in zones 4 and 5 require foundations certified by a registered engineer.
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icfblocks
Registered Users
Posts:265
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| 12/08/2007 7:20 PM |
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ECO-HAMMER
Great question,
That is a big concern of many I am sure. If it is but in "at the site" how do you know it gets adequately mixed. If you have it mixed at the plant what kind of guarantee's do you have? Core samples are the only answer I clearly see but they need to be tested at some point to confirm the results.
I have a whole list of unanswered questions along this line.
Don't want to be a naysayer but daddy always told me "if it looks and sounds too good to be true it probably is".
Just my opinion. |
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Thanks,
Tom
www.advbuildingtech.com |
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Al J
Registered Users
Posts:3
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| 12/09/2007 1:54 PM |
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Understandable comments. As this is a new technology changing the building process, this will require a new verification process and procedure.
Quite simply, one distributor we are working with came up with a very simple, repeatable and documentable idea.
If the admixture is being added at the batch mixing plant, working out an agreement with your ready mixer on establishing a simple but documentable procedure with accountability should be expected, especially if you have a good working relationship with your ready mixer. If you are able to count on them to deliver the correct mix in the right quantity on the right date, it would follow that getting documentation on adding an admixture should not be much of stretch, correct?
By the same token (if adding the admixture on-site is the preferred method) developing a simple, documentable and accountable procedure with your ready mixer should be an expectation. Getting up-front agreement to this is the key and should be understandable.
Agreeing up-front with your local code official on your change in procudure (replacing rebar with Helix) and establishing an agreed-upon and documentable procedure acceptable to the code official (it should be the same one you and your ready-mixer have agreed to) should not be much of a stretch, depending on the municipality. Clear, upfront communication is the key.
It is a small change in procedure, and taking a few moments up-front to establish a documentable procedure which is acceptable to your ready-mixer and local code officials should make adopting this new technology straight-forward and understandable. A few bumps in the road early-on are to be expected, but clear communication should smooth these out as you get up to speed and don't look back.
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NickC
Registered Users
Posts:2
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| 05/19/2008 4:26 PM |
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I would think that taking a sample core from somewhere in a finished slab or wall would reveal the metal fibers in cross-section and render good visual evidence of their presence and density.
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